Rachel Saint on APC Pathways, Senior Professional Route and Support for Surveyors

peaker: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. Today I’m joined by Rachel Saint. Rachel is a commercial property surveyor with a strong background in retail. Rachel is also the co-founder and owner of Property Elite. So without further ado, Rachel, welcome. Welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks, Nina. Thanks for having me along today. You’re very welcome, and it’s good to have you here. So you have, as we’ve just been discussing, some excellent experience in the realms of professional pathways into with uh becoming chartered and a surveyor, and also around the APC, etc. But I think what we’ll start with is just to understand a little bit more about yourself and sort of your background.

Speaker 1: 01:28
Thanks. I mean, I’ve been um a surveyor for oh gosh, 30 years or more. And you’d never guess by looking at me clearly, but I have been around the block a few times. I actually got into the profession not really knowing much about it at all. Like I had a job, I always, you know, really enjoyed property, but I had a job where I was working as a secretary and ended up in a um first of all working for some chartered accountants and then to a chartered surveyor and had no idea what that was all about. So it was quite interesting then finding out about that poor chap that I was working for, who was absolutely charming, was really struggling running sort of three teams at the time with no support. And so I ended up going to meetings for him at the age of 19, not really having any idea of what I was doing, but really kind of getting stuck into residential block management, which uh was was quite a shock. Um, so then I kind of got into more involved in his commercial work, and he very kindly said to me, Well, why don’t you get qualified? So I went off, did my exams externally, and got my degree through the College of Estate Management, and then became a chartered affair. So during that time, I’d obviously built up quite a lot of experience in landlord and tenant and retail agency, which is what I really specialise in, then moved into more retail consultancy, retail development, mixed-use development, and quite a lot of landlord and tenant advice around shops and supermarket property, actually. Yeah, so that’s that’s kind of my surveying career. And then I moved, sort of pivoted into training with property elite, really as a result of lockdown and COVID. So my business partner and I’d already decided to set up Property Elite and identifying that there was what we felt was a bit of a gap around helping people across the profession to get qualifications. It’s quite difficult, even if you’re in a big firm. It’s virtually it’s not impossible, but it’s really challenging if you don’t have that sort of structured support. So we’d we’d set that up. And then of course COVID hit. So I think there were a lot of people sitting at home thinking, gosh, perhaps I’d use this time constructively. I know that I can’t really recall the details now, but I think the lockdown arrangements and furloughing staff allowed staff to to pursue qualifications during that period, although they couldn’t work, so to speak. So all of a sudden it really, really took off and yeah, spent lockdown glued to a screen. Both lockdowns glued to a screen.

Speaker: 04:16
Yeah. So what are your thoughts generally around? You talk about the challenges, obviously, around the pathways of the APC, but generally with surveying, what are your what are your perspectives, the view of surveying as a career and and things like that?

Speaker 1: 04:31
Oh gosh, I think that the funny thing about surveyors is that we we all kind of think that surveying is limited to what we do. So really, I hadn’t got much of a clue about surveying outside commercial property before I I went into property league. I mean, obviously I bought and sold houses, done a lot of small residential development, so had some kind of understanding around the residential market as well. But you think of a surveyor as being a person who does the job that you do as a surveyor, but actually there’s so many different types of surveying out there, and that’s why I’ve learnt a lot about having for gone into and set up property elite, all of a sudden I’m helping people that are doing all sorts of different things all over the world, which is hugely interesting. And I’ve learned a hell of a lot out of it. But I think the challenge that kind of throws up, sorry, to kind of cross. Is to communicate what we do as surveyors, because as surveyors could mean any different type of about 20 different types of surveyors. So communicate that and also have a sort of cohesive approach to the market, our professional bodies, etc., given the diversity of the profession.

Speaker: 05:48
There is a significant amount of diversity across the profession, and it’s something that I’ve I’ve discovered like over the last few years, and a number of people also on the podcast have sort of alluded to that. Going back to the APC with diversity, how does that work? Does is there quite a significant impact on diversity and its relationship with the APC process and what your experiences of that are?

Speaker 1: 06:14
Yeah, definitely. So there are an enormous amount of different pathways for different surveyors. And obviously, one tends to only think about the pathway that you did personally. So that might be residential, might be valuation, it might be commercial real estate. I could carry on naming millions of them, but then down to the more sort of the more kind of niche things like sort of art and antiques and property finance and investment and that sort of thing. So getting very, very, very nichey. So I mean the first thing is to find the one that’s right for you and not sometimes when people come to Property Elite and we chat with them, we find that they’re doing what their boss did, because that’s what their boss did, and that’s what their experience of it is. So it’s really, really important to get the pathway right in terms of what you actually do and what your experience is. So is that does that look like, for instance, residential, or does it look like valuation if you’re involved in residential valuation? So and it’s down to the microcosms of actually what you do on a day-to-day basis and where your experience lies as to which pathway is going to be best for you, because within those different pathways for the APC, you’ve got a myriad of choices that you can structure within those pathways. And those choices need to reflect what you have already done, or if you’re on a structured training route, then what you’re going to be doing over two years. And sometimes that will change. So it’s understanding that and making sure that the pegs fit in the right holes so that you choose competencies within a pathway that are going to suit your experience, and you don’t try to force yourself into the wrong pathway and the wrong competencies. Can you chop and change? How does it how rigid?

Speaker: 08:03
Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 08:04
Right. Yeah, you can. You until you submit, you’ve got options to change your pathway and your competencies within that pathway. A lot of people kind of set it at the beginning and then feel they’ve got to fulfil that if they’re going through a structured training regime, but actually they do have the opportunity to change, and that’s something that they should be discussing with their counsellor. So if you’re on a structured training pathway, you’ve got a counsellor, perhaps a supervisor as well, who are responsible for helping you. And that responsibility is something they have to take pretty seriously because that’s the sort of thing they need to know. Can their candidate change? Are they better off changing, or can the firm give them the experience they’re going to need to get to the level that’s requisite in that particular competency? So it is dependent really on having that good counsellor advice too for the candidates can feel quite alone if they haven’t got that level.

Speaker: 08:60
I was going to ask you, what are the sort of the main challenges that you you come across with the APC for students?

Speaker 1: 09:08
Well, yes, uh quite a few challenges because it is a complex process. And the reason, of course, it’s complex is because of this issue of how diverse the profession is. And and what the RICS has done quite rightly, in my opinion, is to really broaden the qualification so as many as many people as possible have the opportunity to use their experience within a very broad industry to get to a qualification.

Speaker: 09:36
So it’s a bit more accessible and not you you go down this route almost.

Speaker 1: 09:41
Yeah, you kind of are to a certain extent, you are a bit pigeonhole. But actually, what I’m saying is if they simply if RACS was to simplify it down and say instead of 18 pathways or whatever the number looks like, we’re only going to have five, that would be much more challenging for people to get the competency standards that would be required. Do you see what I mean? So at the moment, though we have a really broad-based qualification where you can you’ve got so many different choices to get the right choice for your experience. Okay. If that was to simply simplify down to say five or six routes, then it would be much more difficult, in my opinion, for people to satisfy those requirements, or could be, who knows?

Speaker: 10:28
Right. Okay, because one of the things I’m aware of I come across a lot being surveyors, people on the APC, and also through um Lionheart. I’m a trustee with Lionheart, and obviously they get a lot of students that come through with APC challenges. They can say it’s lonely, they need support and things like that. What is it that sort of people come to you for with property elite? What is it that you help with?

Speaker 1: 10:55
Well, we help with everything really. I know it sounds a bit bit a bit sort of broad, but actually we do a free consultation for people because actually very often they don’t know what they want either. And so just sort of giving us a call and having a chat about where they are and what their challenges are can be quite useful because quite often people don’t actually unfortunately have information about the different routes that are available to them to get qualified or the different levels of qualification, what the requirements are. And the information is out there, but actually it’s quite hard for people to access without understanding where to access it. Does that make sense? Yeah. So you know, a 10-minute conversation can really help people to just understand what their journey is going to look like. And is it better to do it now or do it in two years’ time when I can get it onto this route, or or is there a different way to approach it which is is going to be easier? So, should I do a master’s if I’ve got a non-cognate degree? Those are the sort of questions that we get quite often at people for people at an early stage of their journey.

Speaker: 12:04
Do you think that have you, because I I I see things, you know, across social media and people talking about the APC? And one of the things that I’ve seen sort of probably in the last six months to a year is conversations around people, less people uh taking it, like literally the deciding not to do it altogether. Is that something that you’ve experienced sort of through your interaction with things?

Speaker 1: 12:34
Actually, right. Not at all. And that is interesting. Yeah, it’s interesting, yeah. I I think when I was practicing more as a surveyor as a in the commercial world, the APC was something that pretty much everybody did. 95% of surveyors that I knew were qualified surveyors, and the firms that they were with very much expected them to achieve that qualification. It was a kind of you wouldn’t move on in your career unless you had that, had secured that. And I think there’s still elements of that in parts of the profession. So there will be a career progression path within organizations which will involve getting your professional qualification. And actually, whilst the firms want it, I think it’s also really important for individuals because clearly it gives them opportunity to be more marketable, more saleable within the job market. So it it really is important, in my view, for candidates to think, for for people, junior surveyors, to think actually this qualification is worth having and it’s worth doing the work for. And it is it is difficult, and to a certain extent, it it needs to be, because actually it is about showing that you are capable of achieving something that and it should be the gold standard. It’s important the profession maintains very high standards, in my view. And I think the tricky bit for people is perhaps not having the right guidance around that, and then coming back to what we do where people are not within firms that have either chartered surveyors or people that are close to what a councillor should look like and understand what that role is, then that can be it can be very hard for them to navigate. So that’s really where we kind of step in and can prov provide that mentoring advice to help the candidates get through the process without too much angst, because most of the angst is caused by really not knowing what your route should look like and having a and having a process to follow which takes you there. There is information out there from the RSES, obviously, um, but I don’t know perhaps that’s not something that’s not quite the same, is it?

Speaker: 14:59
Information as opposed to having someone there to talk to.

Speaker 1: 15:03
Somebody you can guide us. Exactly.

unknown: 15:04
Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:05
Someone you can just have a chat to or send an email to saying, look, I’m a bit lost here. What what do I do about this? So yeah, I think that’s that’s where we come in.

Speaker: 15:15
And I think with with From my perspective, Rachel, why is it that there are are there a you know, I don’t I don’t know the market, but there are so many that cannot get that support. Is it to do with the number of firms that have the structure in place, the the ability to provide that support for where does that sort of where does this need come from? Oh well, I think it’s a it’s a load of things.

Speaker 1: 15:39
Okay. Yeah. Number of firms that are uh big enough and profitable enough to have the resources to plow into staff development and training, everything is is squeezed, isn’t it? The bottom line is is squeezed and has been for the last 20 years. Working 30 years ago, we were we probably have two people had had one assistant between them secretary back in the day. And that doesn’t exist anymore because everyone is responsible for looking after their own correspondence, their own diary, etc. etc. And on top of that, they’ve got to get to grips with with actually making some money for the business. Um, and and so I think there’s a lot of pressure on people that are expected to be counsellors and supervisors as well, because they they’ve got to do that on top of their day job and support people through a process that they may not be particularly familiar with. So I have got a lot of sympathy with people who are in that role because it’s pretty tough.

Speaker: 16:44
Is it the to be the APC counsellor? Can you tell me a bit more about that? As in, do we have enough councillors? What’s the what’s the process? I would imagine they have to go through something through the RSCS to become a counsellor. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: 16:57
And then Yeah, so you have to do some training through the RICS to become a counsellor, and you have to be obviously qualified yourself. You can be a supervisor without being a qualified surveyor, but you have to be qualified to be a counsellor. And and that obviously that’s fine, but the process is the process that as an individual, as a surveyor, is the process that you’ve been through yourself. So coming back to my point about uh pathways and competencies, uh if you did it 10, 15 years ago, you’re not really on it, are you? You know, and that’s through no fault of your own at all. And and so there’s that challenge. If you haven’t done it particularly recently, you might have done a different pathway because you’ve pivoted in your career. There’s a lot out there in terms of the different pathways and the different competencies and the requirements for those. And for someone to know it inside out as a counsellor is really, really challenging.

Speaker: 17:58
It’s keeping it to date, I would imagine, as well.

Speaker 1: 18:00
Yeah, absolutely. And for me, I had a huge learning curve when I started off as property elite. You know, I was literally looking at different pathways, different competencies can say the same things, but be different from one pathway to another. So it really is a little bit of a minefield. But so we’ve got firms there with support. We’ve got firms that are not surveying firms that have surveyors coming up through their systems. Well, so they might have one or two surveyors within them, but they don’t have the level of support that you would expect from, say, CBRE or Savals or one of those larger multinational surveying companies with graduate programs that are completely from A to Z and look after the candidates really, really well. So it’s it’s really in terms of actually not only is the APC incredibly complicated and diverse, but also the people doing it are in a really complicated and diverse industry. So the two things don’t necessarily match up without a bit of someone to interpret it in between. So that’s what we try to do. That’s what you do.

Speaker: 19:14
Do you do you specialise in certain areas like commercial or residential, or what what sort of areas do you support?

Speaker 1: 19:21
We cover all areas, and that’s because not because we pretend to be brilliant ourselves, although they clearly we are, but joking apart, we have a a lot of incredibly experienced consultants in the different competencies. So that’s how we’ve so when we started off, yes, we did have to restrict ourselves to the areas that we were feel we felt as competent as possible in. But as we’ve learned more about different areas and taken on consultants who are able to work with us and sit supplement our personal knowledge, that’s helped us enormously to expand all through. And and actually interestingly, and we’ll probably touch on it a bit in a bit more detail, but uh for the senior professionals, for instance, who are people that I tend to mentor and part of the business that I’ve developed, the competencies they need to cover are obviously technical competencies, but their level of knowledge is is at a level with their experience that more there’s more emphasis on competencies around managing and leading their business. So so that’s actually an area which is not so technically focused to get them through their senior professional.

Speaker: 20:38
Is that is that my basic understanding is that’s somebody that hasn’t gone through a typical academic route, they’ve but they’ve been a surveyor for many, many, many years, and they’ve got lots of experience and knowledge, and then now they want to go down the the chartered route.

Speaker 1: 20:54
Is that yeah, basically, it’s an opportunity to qualify. But there are three routes which you can do apart from the normal, if you like, University of Commerce APC. So you’ve got the specialist assessment, the academic assessment, and the senior professional assessment. Specialist academic kind of speaks for itself. So specialist is is for people that are really, really a leading light within their specialist area of the profession. Okay. So for instance, I’ve worked with a mycology mycological expert, I can’t even say the word. So yeah, to get qualificate qualification as a chartered affair. That’s kind of really, really niche. Um, academic, obviously, if you’re in in academic world and you’re involved in lecturing or writing papers or whatever in within the profession, then there’s a route for you. And then finally, the senior professional, which is much more common, is people who have achieved within their careers, so probably typically have got to director, perhaps associate director level, but a leading Teams are leading teams involved in developing business andor running their own businesses. Okay. So they may have gone through different routes, or they might have, for instance, ASOC RICS associate accreditation, and think, well, that chartership is what they want to do, or they may have come through completely different routes. So coming back to the point about firms out there, organizations out there who are not surveying organizations, so to speak. So things like the NHS or they have got a big property team. A lot there are there’s a lot of people that have come through in in retail, for instance, my background, a lot of people end up in the property director roles that who have started off in retail. So they’re now in a senior role, they’ve got a lot of property experience and they want to achieve that recognition of their knowledge and experience within the property sector. So the senior professional route is the right route for those individuals because it is a route which the APC is obviously focused towards people that have come out of university and are doing two years of structured training. So the interview for the senior professional route is very different. It’s a peer-to-peer review. It’s not a kind of grilling on your technical knowledge. Exactly. Well, it’s still formal, but it’s much more focused on the senior professional competencies, which are leadership, managing people, managing resources. So what does leadership mean? What does that mean for you? What type of leader are you? It’s really interesting, and it’s really interesting for candidates to do that route because they actually start to explore why they do what they do and how they run their business in particular.

Speaker: 23:46
Okay. Is there a what’s the number of years, for example, that someone has to have of experience? Is that a requirement?

Speaker 1: 23:53
Ten years for most candidates. If you have a master’s degree, it’s reduced to five, but it’s also dependent on your actual experience and what you’ve been doing during that process. So you have to go through a small, you have to go through a vetting process with RICS, which is not particularly complicated, but they will look at the candidate and say, is this a candidate who is, in their opinion, able to go forward for the senior professional assessment? It’s not a given, but there are no, interestingly, there are no academic qualifications required at all. It’s all down to experience. So whilst for the APC, you need to have a degree, or preferably an accredited degree, for the senior professional route, you do not need to have a degree, you just need that experience and to be in senior roles or have been in senior roles.

Speaker: 24:42
I mean, I’m presuming if this is something obviously you’re you’re very much leading, is you would encourage surveyors who have this level of experience, expertise to to consider this route to get that recognition. Is that your idea? Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1: 24:58
I think I think yeah, and I think that’s why a lot of people want to to do it, because A, they want to have they feel that they’ve had a successful and and super career, and actually they should have that qualification to reflect their experience. Sometimes that might be because they want to go into a different role where they feel that qualification might be more useful or recognized, particularly on the international level, where a lot of people working out in the Middle East, for instance, which is a really booming market, having the chartered qualification is really, really important there. So, and a lot of people sort of doing that as an aside, coming from the construction back uh construction project management type background, or QSing, going out into uh the international world where there’s there’s some very lucrative opportunities with so much development happening at the moment. Right. So that’s so there’s opportunities out there then, literally. There definitely are, yes. And and having that chartership is is very helpful with being able to get the the cream of those opportunities, I think. So yeah, it it is for that and I guess for personal satisfaction it for the own next steps. And a lot of people also want to kind of it sounds a bit hackney, but give back a bit in terms of being able to then mentor and seek help people within their organizations to get those qualifications.

Speaker: 26:29
I should ask about that because I think one of the things I I I I notice a lot is obviously the we have incredible surveyors out there with uh amazing knowledge, expertise. And uh there are many that are coming up to that retirement age or maybe five, ten years away. And it’s also it get to that stage. Well, what next? Or what do we what do we do? I always think what do we do with all that knowledge? You know, can’t we just download their brains on Twitter? It’s just there’s so much expertise, and that I think it makes so much sense to them be able to do charter, then then to be able to do the mentoring and to be an assessor. Yeah, that’s right. For the next generations that are coming through, because we don’t want to kind of we want that knowledge and expertise passing on.

Speaker 1: 27:15
Yes, I think I think that’s absolutely right. And I think if you’re look talking about surveying in the sense of building surveying, residential surveying and valuation, I think that is really I think there’s a challenge around that to actually get the people physically on site and looking at looking at buildings, looking at defects, finding solutions around that. I think as we as we progress with our the way we work now within industry as a whole, and not just talking about surveying profession, but progress with AI, everything being at the tips of our fingers on a computer, we can’t lose touch with actually the physicality of what surveying is quite often about. So getting in your car, going and looking at the town, looking at the pro, you know, if you’re looking at a specific property, if you’re doing a survey, obviously that’s obvious. But if you’re valuing, it’s about a wider picture as well. You know, it’s about what issues underpin values in that location. And you don’t get that from looking looking online. You know, you have to, you have got to go there, got to drive every street, you’ve got to look at the area, you’ve got to look at the property, and you’ve really got to understand what you’re talking about.

Speaker: 28:32
Yeah, it’s an interesting thing with with with AVMs and valuation models and not going to properties when you think about the fact when I when I did some shadowing and you go out to properties and on paper, you’re like it’s worth this, X, Y, and Z, and then you get to the property, and then you you look around the area and you look to next door’s neighbour, and you think uh the who they’re living next to, the state of the property next door, yeah, that can put have such an impact on and access with the driveway, and there’s there’s so many different things, isn’t there? Factors absolutely don’t experience unless you’re actually there.

Speaker 1: 29:05
You don’t know agreed. And also the fundamentals for who’s buying who’s buying a property. Property is only worth something if somebody pays for it. Okay. And if if if they’re not if there’s there’s nobody wanting to buy in that area because it’s not a great area, or if it is a great area and there are things happening in that area, you know, improvements, transport links, etc. You know, that the those are things that the value needs to know about, and they need to translate that into their valuation advice. It’s not just about looking at what’s happened, underpinning it with a couple of comparables. It’s about looking at the future as well, and not just from a from the point of view of the location, but also you know, what’s happening with legislation, what’s happening with sustainability around EPCs, MES, etc. You know, what impact is that having on lending? Lending underpins who’s buying, who is able to buy, you know, all of that. So I could go on for hours about it.

Speaker: 30:04
But you’re right, there’s so many variables. I think I always think valuation when I was doing valuation, it’s like this this art, that there’s like a science, but an art to it as well, because you have to consider so many different things.

Speaker 1: 30:16
Uh it’s definitely a an a science and an art, as you say. And you know what? It’s also thinking the micro and the macro, because those two is where those two things interact is where you you finally come out with your value. And and it’s about having a justification as well. So, you know, I I I don’t know why I’m waffling on about this, frankly, but you know, your opinion as a valuer is is what it what counts, but your opinion needs to be based on sensible deductions of the market and the market on market activity. That’s got to be based on fact, so comparables, and it’s also gonna be based on understanding of the market, who’s in the market, what’s driving the market.

Speaker: 30:58
Yeah? Yeah, I think valuation is a fascinating subject. And it’s uh I remember doing the the studies with it, and it was one of those areas where I think some people either get it straight away, or some people it takes a while to get around because it is that balance of that kind of art and science together. But like you say, you have to justify your evaluation, you have to be able to back that up in case it’s a good thing.

Speaker 1: 31:19
And you’ve got to you’ve got to think about the questions you’re gonna you should be asking to come up with that opinion. So am I thinking about this? Am I thinking about who’s the buyer? And and hopefully there’s lots of potential buyers, in which case you can be a lot more bullish about where you’re coming out with your figures, but sometimes that doesn’t happen. And when the market goes into recession or quietens down, because that’s the thing with the property market, of course. What happens is activity ceases. We don’t see values drop very often because people don’t sell unless they have to sell. So what you will see is the market plateauing rather than rather than being able to say, okay, last week it sold for 30,000 less because that transaction isn’t going to happen, is it? It won’t sell.

Speaker: 32:09
Yeah. When you think of when you go back to COVID and you talked about property elite, when you think about the fact that one of the things that you saw a lot was was people fighting for properties and just crazy, crazy, crazy prices. People just offering over the odds. Estate agents were just like here we go. And yeah, you know, downvaluation and all these conversations going on. It’s just like very messy.

Speaker 1: 32:36
It was very messy. And I think that’s because people didn’t really know where things were going to end up. And I also, it was a really kind of a topsy-turvy market in the sense that people were fighting for rural properties, which normally take an age to sell. So, but that has come that’s gone 360 again now, hasn’t it? We’ve seen a complete normalization around that, as we would expect.

Speaker: 33:01
And so before we go, is there anything else you’d like to share? Any kind of resources or anything else that you’d like to sort of mention to listeners?

Speaker 1: 33:12
Well, clearly, we could probably talk all day, Dana, about various things that we we’ve come across in our in our time in the industry. And uh um, yeah, so I will try and keep it brief. Property leads, we out there, you can just book a consultation call with us if there’s anything you want to chat about, no obligation, etc. In terms of resources, we have a lot of free resources on our website as well, which are open to anyone who wants to access them in terms of APC quizzes, revision tools, etc. So please do, if you’re going through your APC, please see what you can get for free. Our newsletters try and keep it topical. We always cover what’s coming out, what the ROCS is saying about things, when things change, or if submission dates change, etc. That’ll always come up from a property elite newsletter. So it’s useful to sign up for that.

Speaker: 34:04
I can also I can back that up as well because I done the same. And having known Jen property elite as well, um, you do have a lot of amazing resources. And so what we’ll be doing is we’ll be linking that in all the show notes. We’ll link to the the website and everything, we’ll link all those details through so people can find more information. But yeah, is there anything else before we finish up for today, Rachel? Because yeah, we could talk forever. I don’t think so. I think I’m down.

Speaker 1: 34:32
I think I need a cup of tea.

Speaker: 34:34
Yeah, it might be the same myself. Well, thank you very much for your time. I’ve really enjoyed that, and I think there’s a lot of really useful nuggets of information there for listeners, especially around the I’ve forgotten what it was now, the profess senior professional route. Yeah. And the APC, the support, and I think, yeah, I think there’s some interesting things around sort of the challenges with APC, but I I think the things that you’ve shared, it’s encouraging to see that there isn’t from your especially from your perspective covering like all the types of surveying, that there isn’t necessarily a slowdown because it’s interesting. Social media can always say one thing.

Speaker 1: 35:12
Yeah, but do you think that do you think also that it it’s very sectoral? The the markets, the sectors of the market operate in different in differ at different times and on different bases. So what might be happening in some somewhere is not necessarily happening somewhere else. So perhaps because I sort of see an overview of it, I’m not so aware of peaks and troughs in certain areas.

Speaker: 35:36
Yeah, no, I think that’s a really good point. Okay, well, thank you very much, Rachel. I appreciate it. Thank you, Nina. Thank you. Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we’re doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveyors UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today’s episode are included in the show notes.