Ed Ellis on residential surveying, people, and the reality of walking into someone’s home.

Speaker: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Welcome to This Is Surveying. Today’s guest is Ed Ellis. Welcome, Ed.

Speaker 2: 00:42
Hello, thanks for having me.

Speaker: 00:44
Super to have you on here today. Great to uh we’ve had a number of conversations before, but it’s lovely to actually get you on the podcast. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 00:53
Absolutely. I’ve been looking forward to it.

Speaker: 00:56
Super. So Ed is a director of Webster Surveyors, who are a firm based in North London. And uh Ed is a registered valuer and surveyor. And what I’m looking forward to talking to Ed about today is uh some of the things that uh he gets involved with on his day-to-day uh surveys, and I think we might probably will touch upon careers and um there’s a few other things that I think people are going to be very interested to hear about, but uh nevertheless, welcome Ed.

Speaker 2: 01:29
Hello, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker: 01:31
So, as we tend to do with the show, I tend to ask something about you or tell us a little bit about yourself. I’m happy with however you want to do that. You don’t need to go through your CV, but you know, tell us a little bit about you, I guess. Who is Ed Ellis?

Speaker 2: 01:47
Sure. Well, I’ve I’ve been in this industry now for about 14, 15 years overall. Started off in agencies, real estate, you know, research, which was an absolute eye-opener, fantastic beginning for anyone who can get into that. Really opened me up as a person because I was terribly shy, didn’t speak to anybody, scared of the phone ringing, and and that really helped me. And I always had an interest in in houses and the built environment and all that and architecture, and so that was a good way in, earned a bit of money, realised that surveying was what I wanted to do quite quickly, realised I wasn’t very good at agency, and so I found my way into surveying, and I have been in private practice, big firms, small firms, corporates, secured lending, and I found myself a a director at Webster’s for the last four years. So it’s it’s been quite the journey.

Speaker: 02:45
It has, isn’t it? And it’s it’s great that you’ve had that broad experience across different sized firms and different areas. Because I guess that’s it gives you that background to to where you are now.

Speaker 2: 02:57
Well, that’s that that’s right. The experiences you get from seeing different sides of the coin and how different firms operate and how they treat surveying and how they treat surveys and valuations differs enormously. And I suppose the client journey, the customer journey is different. And so I think whenever you work at different places, you you pull the good bits out and and you take notes from the bad bits, and it ends up hopefully developing you as a person and as a practitioner, and you end up where you are currently.

Speaker: 03:30
So, with with with all this, there’s many years of experience. Um you must have some really interesting stories to share about things, and you know, are there anything that particularly stands out for you with the work that you’ve done or people that you’ve come across or situations or yeah?

Speaker 2: 03:50
Well, I’ve always said I’d like to write a book one day because the things I’ve seen, the people I’ve met, the places I’ve been to. I mean, with all of those, there are people, places, and things I wished I hadn’t seen, and I hope I never get to see again. But you know, it’s it’s a wonderful journey, and you get to meet some fabulous people. You know, I I’ve been to parts of London and and and the southeast of England that didn’t know existed, never been to. So you’re, you know, the job really can take you to some wonderful places, and you get thrusted into situations, and and particularly in the residential world, which is what I deal with, you’re going into someone’s home. You’re you’re walking into their world, their environment, and it’s not always rosy, it’s not always a spring day with the daffodils, and everyone’s like, oh, yes, you know, fancy upgrading my house, so I’m just going to put it on the market and go. There’s so many different reasons why a survey might be being done or evaluation might be being done. And and so it’s it’s really that people element that that I love. You know, I love talking to people, helping people. And you know, yes, I’m providing a service, I’m getting paid to do that professional service, but I just love helping people and and helping them along their journey, whatever it is that they need done in in the residential world.

Speaker: 05:11
So I guess you’ve got to really think on your feet. Would that be right? Because you don’t know what you’re gonna get.

Speaker 2: 05:17
Yeah, that’s right. You know, you you really have to be have your wits about you, and and and situations are fluids. You know, I’ve I’ve I’ve been at properties where everything seems okay. Partners or children come home, and then suddenly it’s World War III, something’s kicked off. And you think, oh, you know, should I still be here? Do I leave? Do I remind them that I’m upstairs looking in their laundry room? You know, you’ve just got to, you know, you’re walking into someone’s environment, and sometimes it’s very uncomfortable. And sometimes people don’t want you there.

Speaker: 05:52
Well, of course. No, it’s in a very emotional time because there’s many reasons, as we know, why people do sell their homes, and a lot of it isn’t by choice.

Speaker 2: 06:01
That that’s right, you know, so there are many, many situations, and and some are very happy, some are very sad, some are natural life matters. You know, I I meet people that have got you know sort of large homes that don’t need them anymore, and they wish to downsize before they have to downsize, which is great, you know, but I’ve also had some sad situations that you have to deal with. And it’s it’s it’s understanding those situations and not just walking in and bulldozing your way through saying, right, I’ve got a survey to do, out the way, I’ve got to get this done. It’s it’s being it’s about listening and being delicate because even though your client is the one that’s asked you to go, as I say, you’re you’re still going into someone else’s environment, and and you do have to listen to what’s going on.

Speaker: 06:49
And you’re looking, their their perception is you’re looking for any issues in their home.

Speaker 2: 06:54
Yeah, that’s that that that’s right. So so that can make even the calmest of people quite anxious because they think, oh gosh, you know, this person’s coming, I know what surveyors do, they just find all the issues. And they might think my house hasn’t got any.

Speaker: 07:11
It’s funny, I’ve never actually thought about that until this moment. Is that when in any other situation do you have someone come, a stranger, look around your house and look for all the problems with it? Yeah, yeah. And it’s just so it’s so personal, isn’t it?

Speaker 2: 07:27
But I think that’s it. Very, very personal. You know, you might have lived in that house for a year, five years, twenty years. In some instances, I went to a house and the family have owned it for 61 years. And, you know, it was it belonged to the parents. Parents have now passed away, children have it, they don’t necessarily want it anymore or feel that they can move on now. And you know, that’s their family home that they’ve absolutely cherished and loved. And then this guy turns up with a toolkit of stuff, okay? I’m gonna poke there, I’m gonna prod that. Oh, I don’t like that. Machines beeping all over the place. Oh, you know, what’s he doing? And so you’ve got to be very sympathetic to that. You really do.

Speaker: 08:08
Do you get a lot of people commenting about the beeping?

Speaker 2: 08:10
You do get some, yeah. You do get some, you know, you could be in the other room, and this thing’s going off, you know, the whole wall’s about to fall down, it’s it’s soaking wet, this thing’s going off the chart, and someone goes, What’s that? Beeping, you know, you’re right there, you know. And you just think, okay, yes, it’s all right, and it’s fine. And some people do want to know, and they say, Well, what are you gonna do in my house? Are you gonna touch anything? Are you gonna open anything? What’s that? You’re prodding in my wall, you know, and you just think, okay, well, yeah, that’s fair enough. It’s my house. I’m owed an explanation as to what you’re gonna do, and that’s fine. So, yes, as some people do, do sort of comment on the equipment you’re gonna use, and you know, you’re going into loft spaces, pulling ladders down and opening windows, and sometimes you’ve got to be a bit of a ballerina because you’ve got to walk around all of the intricate things around the home, and they’re sitting there going, Oh, uh always gonna knock that over and that, and you know, you’ve got to be careful.

Speaker: 09:10
Because you I bet there’d be some people that literally just follow you round.

Speaker 2: 09:15
Oh, yeah. You get you get some people. Sorry, I interrupted you there.

Speaker: 09:19
No, yeah, you didn’t no, you didn’t at all. I just thought I was just gonna say that that that must be really awkward.

Speaker 2: 09:25
It can mean, you know, and you meet this whole spectrum of people, you get some that open the door. I mean, they couldn’t even care less that I’ve rang the doorbell. They just open the door and say do what you like. Some people obviously want a bit more of an introduction and then they leave you alone and they sort of you’ve got that trust, and trust is very important. You get some people who are very anxious, they’re very nervous, you know. I don’t know if they think you’re gonna nick half the silver in the house, and they will literally be on your shoulder and they will want to know every room what you’re doing, and it completely can throw you off your your rhythm.

Speaker: 09:59
I’m gonna say that must be really hard because you have to concentrate.

Speaker 2: 10:02
Yeah, and and everyone listening to this will have a way that they would approach a survey or evaluation, they’ve got their rhythm, and sometimes that rhythm will be knocked off course because as I say, every time you ring that doorbell, you never quite know what you’re gonna face. But but it can, and you know, you have to politely say that you do have a job to do, and whilst you’re in their house, but if it’s something that’s obstructing you doing your job, you have to you have to try and find a way to navigate around it. But you know, some people are very, very aware of what you may or may not find. Sometimes it’s intentional because they might they might want to hide something. Some people just are very nervous and want to know what you’re doing.

Speaker: 10:47
It’s a lot of I would imagine a lot of people don’t appreciate that emotional, emotive side of because I think residential’s got to be the most emotive, I I would think, of all the types of surveying that you do because you are going into this personal space compared to other areas. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there’s there’s a lot of surveyors I’ve spoken to across all different areas talk about the need for the importance of emotional intelligence, the need the importance of communication. Um, but I can always I always think that the stories that you hear from residential side far more emotive, far more emotional, far more unpredictable.

Speaker 2: 11:31
Yes. Well they are, they are absolutely, you know, and and you know, I’ve got I’ve got a story of when and a really profound story that that really sort of made you stop and think about about what you’re doing and your life, and and even months and months after going on this visit, it still makes me think differently about life and and generally. But I I think it was a Monday morning, weather was miserable, turned up at this London local authority uh housing estate, and I you know, if I’m honest, I was thinking, Oh, I don’t really want to go in here, it’s miserable. I could hear the dogs barking, and I thought, I don’t like the look of this. I I could be doing something else with my life. But anyway, you know, you go in, you do your job, ringing the doorbell, you know, lovely lady answers the door, and she’d clearly spent an enormous amount of time and money on this ground floor, flat space in it, beautiful, absolutely fantastic, really lovely bathrooms, kitchens, wallpaper, you name it, everything. But I I got a very odd sense from her the minute I walked in, and she was very, very anxious, but more than I’ve ever seen before. And I I said, you know, I did my usual thing, I explained what I’m going to do, and I’m just going to post her about the house and the flat rather, and just you know, you relax and sit down. I’ll I’ll be awhile. And so I did that, did my thing, running up and down uh the stairs. And as every time I came downstairs, I could see that she was really, really anxious and sort of standing there and almost like sort of chewing her nails off, like, you know, what’s going on? And so I I actually stopped and I said, you know, it’ll be all right, you know, it’s okay. I said, you’ve got a beautiful home. And I said, there’s always bits and pieces that you know we’re finding, you know, no home is perfect, whether it costs a hundred thousand or twenty million. There’s always something. And anyway, she said, I know, but there’s there’s a lot riding on this. And I said, Oh, you know, okay. I said, I’m sure that’s stressful, you know, buying and selling, and I’m sure you’ve got a property you want to move to. She said, No, no, it’s it’s more serious than that. I I need to sell, I don’t want to. I’ve been here for I can’t remember now, 15, 20 years. I love it. But I’m very ill, desperately ill. And the only treatment I can get is a life-saving treatment in America. And so I have to sell. So she had to sell this property, and so this survey carries such an enormous weight. So even though she wasn’t my client, I felt this enormous amount of responsibility that, you know, I hope I don’t find anything. But you know, you still have a job to do. But at the same time, you can be very sympathetic to what this person is telling you. So I took a bit of time out of the survey to explain a bit more about the wider situation without giving much detail away about my findings. But you just try to do the right thing and calm someone down, but you also understand what’s at stake for somebody else.

Speaker 1: 14:30
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:31
You know, and this is the kind of thing on a random Monday morning that you can encounter. And as you say, residential property is very emotive.

Speaker: 14:40
Gosh, yeah. That’s quite a story. You can see why she wouldn’t have been so agitated.

Speaker 2: 14:46
Yeah, you know, and and I think this is one of the things that is possibly lacking in the industry because there’s a lot of things where people train to become a surveyor or qualify as a surveyor, and they’re given the tools, not only the physical tools, like your diet meters and and all the rest of it, but your expect uh inspection routines and this is what you do when you turn up at a property. But because residential surveying is so personal, I don’t know yet if there’s anyone who’s teaching people how to actually be in someone’s property. And it’s something that I don’t even know if you can teach.

Speaker: 15:28
I think it a lot of it comes down to experience, but I I still think that even some form of role play, case study type work, yeah, where people are put through situations and how do you respond to that could still be really beneficial.

Speaker 2: 15:46
I I think so. You know, and that may go on, but I’m not aware that it goes on to enough detail. And you know, we’ve we’ve worked with people at Webster’s and and in previous places of work where we’ve had people through, for example, Sava uh and other courses, other residential property courses, and people walk into the house and they’ve got their idea of what they want to do, but then they freeze. They freeze because they don’t know what to do. They know what to do in theory, but then they don’t have that real-world experience, obviously, because they’re learning or they’ve just come out the qualification. But you know, you almost have to say to them, ring the bell, say hello, introduce yourself, and and just sort of, you know, have a chat or or or just make somebody at ease in their own home, you know, because I think people are taught or or or new surveyors are taught, you know, oh, you mustn’t say anything because you’re working for the you know, your clients not there. Yeah, oh, so you mustn’t tell them anything. I don’t tell anyone anything, but I can still have a 15-minute chat with them, and I haven’t divulged anything.

Speaker: 16:55
Yeah, that’s very true. Because surely that’s in your own interests to put them at ease.

Speaker 2: 17:01
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I’ve I’ve started off a survey with somebody that’s very frosty, and you think, oh, you know, this I’m gonna earn my money here. This is gonna be a hard day at the office, and um, you know, but you know, you talk to people and often they soften up and they just want to know something, or sometimes they pick your brain about something to do with their onward purchase, or they talk about server they had 20 years ago, but you just talk, you just talk, and suddenly people relax and you see it, their shoulders are like this, and then after 10, 5, 10 minutes, they they relax, and then from not leaving you alone, they then suddenly say, Oh, I’m just gonna go and do some work in the third bedroom on the top floor, knock when you need me, and you think, aha, I’ve unlocked the key, and you just get on with your business.

Speaker: 17:54
And I think it also there’s the the huge benefit long term is that surveyors, you know, surveyors, they’re representing the profession as a professional. And if you are going in there and that that isn’t your client, but that can always be a future client, and you are, I think, by presenting that image, by putting people at ease and taking that extra time. So that I mean not everybody’s gonna be your best mate afterwards, but the thing is, if they view as professional, they’ve make you feel at ease, they’re gonna think, oh, that wasn’t too bad, or oh, I can see why, I can see the importance of what they do. I understand why, why, what they’re gonna what they do and what their process is, or you know, make and it it will stay with that person forever. It’s that experience, and if it’s a good one, regardless of whether they’re nervous, or you know, all of these things, because you can come across in a good way and you can come across in lots of good way, and then that all has a knock-on impact on how people perceive Silvayus.

Speaker 2: 18:59
Yes, absolutely, and you know, some people say to me, Well, I’ve I’ve never done a survey, or I had one 30 years ago, I can’t remember. Or they think they’ve had a survey, but actually it was somebody representing the bank just doing evaluation, and they still call it a survey. And they said, Oh, you know, you’re nothing like the last person. The last person was here for 10 minutes. Oh, yeah, you know, measured up and and quite frankly, bug it off. And you know, and I said, Oh, yes, you know, they they were probably checking for the bank, and they go, Oh, yeah, you know, yes, that’s that’s I think that’s what they did. And then people say to me after three hours, you know, you know, you’re you’re quite thorough, yeah. I’m like, yeah, well, you know, there’s there’s a lot to look at. You know, even uh the average three-bed semi to use that basic example, can take a long time. And so you’re right, people would then say, Oh, you know, you you do a lot of things, and they then start asking what you’ve checked, and and again, you don’t give too much away, but you say, Well, I have to look at everything and look at the roof, the windows, the doors, and they’re like, Oh, good grief. You know, they had no idea. And then and then some of the modern tools you bring out, things like drones, and that really gets people’s attention. Oh, do you use a drone to look at my chimney? Yes, yes, you know, so so that really gets people into interested. And then, as you say, so not only does it help with the industry showing people what surveyors do these days, but you can also get future work because people keep hold of your details six months later, nine months later, a year later, oh, you know, we found somewhere else, or we decided to rent, or that sale didn’t go through for whatever reason, but we’d like you to represent us because you were fantastic when we were trying to sell.

Speaker: 20:49
There’s a lot to be said for that, isn’t there? Yeah. Yeah. You know, there’s a lot.

Speaker 2: 20:55
And you’re not necessarily trying, you’re just doing your thing and you’re doing it well. But that’s it.

Speaker: 21:00
No, you’re not going in there pitching, you’re not going, hey, I can do this.

Speaker 2: 21:03
That’s right. That’s right. You know, you’re just being decent, you’re being empathetic, you’re being professional, and that’s a big difference, is you try to be professional, and actually things rub off that you don’t see or you don’t think about because you’re just doing your thing, and then you get you get your rewards later.

Speaker: 21:26
Yeah, and it you I and I’m sure you will understand that is that importance of how you present yourself and and uh on a professional basis but a consistent basis, yeah. And doing doing a good job, so to speak, is so important to building reputation.

Speaker 2: 21:45
Well that’s that’s right, and you can only do it one property at a time. You know, so it is a slow burner, but if people can take your lead and if you start with the right level of professionalism and Skill because the skill is still very important. You have to do a good job. It’s no good being really lovely, but you’re useless. So yeah, you know, the roof’s falling down and you just miss it completely. So you know you’ve got to be good at what you do, but you’ve got to be professional. And if people can follow your lead, then one by one, every time someone rings or knocks on the door, they’re making a good impression. And it doesn’t matter what accreditation is after their name, whether it’s CIOB, CABE, RICS, you know, the RPSA, it doesn’t matter. Walk in there as you want to be perceived. And you want to be perceived looking smart, doing the job well, and being courteous and professional, and things come your way.

Speaker: 22:50
You must have like a routine just instinctively built in now, all that experience.

Speaker 2: 22:56
Well, I’d like to think so. I do, I do attempt, I do attempt to to sort of I have my rhythm that I try to get into, and some of it’s shaped by past mistakes, habits. You know, so I I start with certain things and I move I move around in accordance with with how I like to do it. Every surveyor will probably do it slightly differently, and I’m lucky that you know I’ve I’ve been doing it long enough with experience that I know that that that routine may have to change because again, you don’t know what you want to do and what you may be able to do. Or you’ve got the beautiful UK weather, very unpredictable. You might think I’ll start outside and go in, and then that’s not possible for whatever reason. Uh, or you attempt to fly the drone and you think, well, I always do the drone at the end. But if it’s gale-force winds, and actually for the first five minutes of your survey, you realize that actually the wind’s died down, you’ve got to quickly get it out of the case and do it because you might not get another opportunity.

Speaker: 24:00
Oh, so you’ve got to be adaptable.

Speaker 2: 24:02
Yeah, absolutely. You know, you really, you really do. I or I went to another property and I start the outside, work way down logical, sort of chimney roof down. I rang the doorbell just to say I’m here. And the people said, Oh, you know, do you mind doing the inside? Because you know, I think I think somebody was doing something outside or painting or something, and you know, okay, well, if that’s what you’d like me to do, I’ll do it. You know.

Speaker: 24:27
Okay, so I know we’ve had this conversation before, but I would like listeners to hear it. There was one about a dog.

Speaker 2: 24:35
There’s a few about though. There’s a few of those over the years, you know.

Speaker: 24:38
I can imagine.

Speaker 2: 24:39
I feel like poor posts from Pat, you know, you turn up at these places and you either get licked to death or mauled to death, or one or the other. But gosh, I don’t I don’t oh god, I don’t know which story I told you, Nina, but there’s there’s been a few.

Speaker: 24:52
It was about as it was about a very big guy who stood in the doorway.

Speaker 2: 24:56
Oh, that one, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I turned up at this house and it was a very sort of very nice house, but yeah, I suppose on a scale of housing, reasonably modest, hill terraced house. Rang on the door, but this guy answered. I mean, he took up the entire door frame. He was just this huge bloke, kind of Phil Mitchell on steroids from his senders. And he said, Look, I’ve got to tell you, mate, this this is how he told talk to me. I’ve I’ve got a dog, he doesn’t like blokes. I said, Right, well that that that might be a slight issue. And and I sort of looked to the left of his of his leg, and there’s this enormous black thing there that I can only describe as the Arnold Schwarzenegger of polar bears, but black. It was just enormous, this thing, like muscles were like seeping out of it. And I was like, right, you know, you can have to keep it in the garden if you don’t mind, because I reckon he’s gonna rip my head off. And you know, he didn’t necessarily like the idea, but I said to him, look, unfortunately, I just can’t come in until that is dealt with for my own safety. And he sort of reluctantly accepted and did it. But you know, that’s the kind of thing that you got to deal with, or or you get people who don’t necessarily control their dogs. And I had one, it was an Alsatian puppy, and this thing was just jumping all over me, and it’s still pretty big, even when it was a few months old. And you just said, you know, if you’re not comfortable with that, you know, it could really put you off, you know. But so far, I’m alive, I’ve got all my hands, all my fingers, so I just keep trying to stay out of trouble.

Speaker: 26:29
Have you had any like tricky, tricky things where you’ve maybe fallen fallen through a ceiling?

Speaker 2: 26:35
It’s exactly that, right? I I well I had my I think it was my first ever proper surveying inspection. I was uh I was training, so I was uh I was shadowing somebody and we went we went to this maze net, and that’s exactly what happened. I think they had a uh a loft and plaster ceiling. We went in the loft, and before the fella could say the the guy who was shadowing, before he said to me, you know, only walk where the beams are, the timber beams. I think I went, put my foot down and it went crunch. Yeah, and the woman’s going, hang on a minute, I can see your foot, and you think, Oh gosh. My goodness, and and it goes straight through. And I mean, fortunately, you know, it the ceiling wasn’t in the best condition anyway. I think the lathe and plaster had seen better days, so there was quite a few cracks around the place, but still, I had made it marginally worse, and so that that was really embarrassing.

Speaker: 27:26
Really that must have been so awkward.

Speaker 2: 27:29
It wasn’t good because you then come down the ladder and you’re like, sorry, you know, really, really didn’t mean to do it. And you, you know, you’re in your early twenties or something, and you just think, Oh yeah, I just don’t know what I’m doing, you know, trying to walk around aloft, which are not easy at the best of times. So that was that was very early on.

Speaker: 27:48
I guess it’s all like the simple things as well. When you go into some people’s houses, like, do you take your shoes? Some people want you to take your shoes off. You obviously have shoe covers, I would imagine.

Speaker 1: 27:57
Yes.

Speaker: 27:57
But all these kind of things that people are very different with their home, aren’t they?

Speaker 2: 28:01
I totally, totally different. You know, so I always offer, I say, would you like to take my shoes off? And you get a mixed response. Some people say yes, some people say no, some people say leave it downstairs because I’ve got wood, but if I’ve got carpet upstairs, would you mind? Fine. Sometimes you you take your shoes off and and someone’s encouraged you to take your shoes off, and you just think, I wish I hadn’t. You know, you’ve got to burn the socks later. Oh no, you know, you get fewer bows. But yeah, again, it’s it’s been courteous. You know, you go to people from different faiths, uh, different countries that they come from, and they’ve got different practices, you know. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, so you’ve got to think about all that sort of thing. Are you happy to do it? You’ve got to be pretty receptive to doing what they want, as long as it doesn’t compromise what you need to do. So, you know, for example, with shoes, uh, I would say absolutely, I’ll take them off or put the covers on, whatever. But just to let you know, if I’m going up in the loft for the ladder for safety, I need to put my shoes back on. So I’ll I’ll take them upstairs and I’ll only put them on when I go up the ladder. And fine, no problem. Yeah. You know, because you’ve asked.

Speaker: 29:08
So in all your years of doing this, Ed, what what do you tend to think people’s perceptions are of surveyors? Like good question. Are they like are they not only do they I guess there’s it, one one side of it is do they understand what surveyor is and what you do? And then the other side is if they have come across you, what what are people’s perceptions? Or that would you say, you know, we we know about the misconception about a value is, you know, having a valued valuation is a survey, and that’s not true. But in your experience, if you were to describe public perception or understanding of surveying, you know, in your area, what would you suggest?

Speaker 2: 29:55
Still, despite all of a lot of firms trying, still the word survey and valuation gets interchanged all day, every day. So that really is a big problem. And people still refer to building surveys, structural surveys, invasive surveys, home buyer surveys, level two surveys, snagging surveys. People are still very confused about what you’re doing. So that is still a big deal. You know, people don’t ask, oh, so what are you doing? Are you doing a building survey? Oh, yes, you know, they call it a level three now. Oh, yeah, okay. Well, what do you actually do? You know, a home buyer serve, and they think, oh, home buyers, that’s nothing. So there is a problem with labelling, terms changing over the years, and what are there too many services? Are there too many things? Does it need to be simplified? So that’s an issue. And the other thing is I think people still expect a white male with grey hair to turn up, right? They do. So I mean, I used to get some comments of you’re younger than I thought you’d be. That’s that’s stopped now. Or that’s that’s stopping now, unfortunately, because the grey hairs are entering the beard and the side of the head. So I’ve got to so I don’t get that so much anymore. But I used to like those. Um, so there is still a misconception that that the surveyor’s gonna be a grumpy old person, and so you have to again try and break that mould.

Speaker: 31:27
Interesting, yeah. Because you hear of women saying that they you know, they turn up and it’s like female surveyors, and they’re like, oh, but it’d be a man. So there is that misconception as well, is brought to you when you said that. So you’re getting it from being so young, and well, absolutely, in the old days, that’s right.

Speaker 2: 31:46
But you know, I I still think people are not clear on what’s a survey, who’s doing it, why it’s being done, what’s the valuation, what’s it being done for, who wants to know? So people still think, oh, the bank have sent somebody around, it’s a survey. Well, it might be because some lenders will panel out surveying companies, and some people do do home buyer surveys or the occasional building survey. Most of the time, it’s probably a valuation, and it’s for the bank’s behalf. Yes, and that is still something that mystifies people. So I would say for me, that’s that’s right now, thinking about that question, that’s possibly a big issue, actually. And also, people have got no idea how long one of those services will take. So, one of our biggest battles as a company, actually, is saying to somebody, well, the surveyor’s been asked to do a level three survey, they may be there up to a few hours, and people are horrified. What do you mean? I’ve got to go out at one o’clock. Yeah, well, you know, there’s a lot to look at. Oh, can’t you do it in an hour? No, you can’t. So again, you have to, you know, you have to explain what you’re doing.

Speaker: 33:04
Yeah, when it just made me think about how long people spend when they’re wanting to make the biggest investment of their life. They sometimes spend 15 minutes walking around the house. Oh, yeah. So then when you go, I want to do a survey and it’s gonna be a few hours, and well, I only spent few, you know, 15 minutes on buying this property from the other side of it. And it’s like, which I always find crazy, you know. You that hence why you need a survey, especially when you’re spending a fractional amount of time. But then some other people’s perceptions are what they think is they’ve looked around the house that they’re looking to buy, and they’re like 15 minutes, and they’re yeah, yeah, I don’t see anything wrong. Yeah, that’s right. I think that’s it, that’s enough.

Speaker 2: 33:43
Well, yeah. Some people, you know, on average, I would say people have two to three viewings at 15-20 minutes apiece. And often the agent’s there, the vendor’s there, the vendor’s dog might be there, the baby might be screaming, because that’s what babies do. Uh, you know, there might be road works going on. People are just like, I can’t, you know, I can’t deal with all of this. You don’t have a calm period of time to think about these things. And as you say, some people got high property that’s the biggest investment of their life, whether it’s at the low end of the market or the highest end of the market, the principle is the same. And people then think, oh yeah, I’ll just put an offer in. And yes, it’s lovely when they ask for a survey to be done, because then spending three hours somewhere, you can find out a lot about it that they will have no clue about, you know.

Speaker: 34:35
Yeah, it’s it’s always that analogy of like when you when you go buy a car, you know, you kind of want it to have, you know, the legal things, uh, you need an MOT, yeah, that kind of thing, an up-to-date MOT. And ideally, you know, you want to see some kind of service record. That’s right. You check it out and give it a test drive. I think people probably spend more time buying a car than they do a house.

Speaker 2: 34:59
Like well, I’ll tell you something. The amount of times on post-survey conversations, people say to me, Well, they’ve done an extension, they’ve done a loft conversion, they’ve done this, that, and the other, and there’s no paperwork whatsoever. Nothing. There’s no building regulations, there’s no planning paperwork, nothing. But the vendor will probably have a file of every MOT and car maintenance that they’ve ever done on their 20-grand car. But the house that costs 1.5 million, nah. We did an extension 20 years ago, no idea. It’s fine. It’s fine. It was done 20 years ago.

Speaker: 35:39
Do you think to some degree it’s because of how it’s ingrained in us, like when we go and buy a car, there’s obviously the legal side of you know, MOT, needs to be roadworthy. But I’m trying to understand or what what could be the reasons why people are so lazy fair with their own homes as opposed to buying a car? Is it because homes they just think are going to be there for a long time, so they don’t think it’s important, and then one day they move.

Speaker 2: 36:04
I wonder if it could be, you know, a car’s on average a shorter term thing you’re holding. So they might think keep the paperwork, so I might sell it in a few years’ time, you know.

Speaker: 36:15
I guess that’s it. It’s more regular, isn’t it? Buying and selling cars. Well, that’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

Speaker 2: 36:22
Yeah, and and also records for things, particularly with housing stuff, building regulations, that sort of thing. Even not that long ago, the electronic records didn’t exist or they were very poor. The paper records, the local authority would say to you, Oh, yeah, it’s been archived. It’s been archived, I don’t, you know, we’ve got no idea. It’s in some warehouse somewhere. And you think, well, actually, it’s really important. You know, your loft conversion was done in 1985. Okay. Do you have the paperwork? No idea. No idea. You think, okay, you know, it’s quite a big deal. Quite ideal. But they’ve got the MOD, got the MOD certificate, spent 250 quid, a few brake discs.

Speaker: 37:01
Yeah, people keep it like a little Bible, don’t they? That’s like it’s like this little collection of receipts.

Speaker 2: 37:07
Yeah, that’s right. But then very rarely I’ll go somewhere and I’ll open up this ring binder. Very proud. And they’ve got the builder’s estimate, they’ve got the quote, they’ve got the uh the works order, the receipts. I bet that’s a dream when you get that. Oh, it’s fabulous. Fabulous. You think lovely. Got everything, yeah, architect’s drawings, you name it. But it’s probably right one in 200. People just don’t have the records, and it is amazing.

Speaker: 37:32
It must be to do come down to the fact that it is very few times in your in your life that you buy or sell a house. And so therefore it’s so infrequent.

Speaker 2: 37:42
I think I think that is right. But another thing is, I wonder if people don’t understand the importance and the significance. They think, oh, well, it was approved, that the extension was approved, we’ve got building regulations, we can relax, but they don’t necessarily think that somebody else might want it in five years’ time or ten years’ time and you want to sell it. So, yeah, because of what I do, I make sure that whatever work I’ve done in my own home, I’ve got the certificate for. And I keep it, and I know I’ve got it on email because I know I will need it. It’s because it’s the first thing someone asks. But someone who may have not moved very often or or whatever might think, I’ve got it, great. I don’t know where it is now, but I knew that they approved it then, so it’s fine.

Speaker: 38:27
Yeah, yes, foresight. People won’t be thinking about that because a lot of people are in their homes, they’re not thinking about selling at that point, but then suddenly overnight situation changes. Yeah, they’ll want to move. Yeah, that’s right. So they’re not thinking ahead. Most people are not planning ahead to move.

Speaker 2: 38:42
No. Oh no. No, that’s right. No, the the average person is not. If you’re a developer or whatever, then it’s different. But yeah, if you’re the average homeowner, you’re you’re buying that for a minimum sort of five-year, ten-year plan, aren’t you? Really? Minimum.

Speaker: 38:57
Yeah, so why would you start want to start thinking about keeping records for when you sell?

Speaker 2: 39:02
Yeah, that’s right.

Speaker: 39:02
And it’s that emotional thing, which is much stronger than the emotional attachment to a cat.

Speaker 2: 39:08
Well, that’s right. And and so, you know, the amount of probably three, four times a week I get. Well, they took the chimney out and there’s no paperwork. They did a side extension, there’s no paperwork. And I spend more of my time, not on site, but actually explaining to people that okay, there’s no paperwork, but is there any problems to even talk about? If it was done 30 years ago and there’s nothing there and nothing’s shown itself now, you have to make a decision. Because if you wait for the paperwork, it’s not going to come because it’s not there. And so it’s it’s it’s keeping people’s expectations realistic.

Speaker: 39:44
Yeah. So there definitely needs to be work, which is something I’ve I’m very conscious of, to people’s understandings of surveys. Yeah. What they involve. Yeah. Because there is so much misunderstanding out there.

Speaker 2: 39:57
Well, that’s right. Things I’m going to look at, things I might request, questions to ask the solicitor, the conveyancer. And that some people are very prepared. Some people are completely taken aback that you need a service record for the boiler. Why are you asking for an electrical certificate? And so there isn’t a sheet that says these are the top ten things you should check six months before you uh list your house or whatever. You know, or these are things your surveyor might request, get them ready. Because actually, someone like a good mortgage broker, they’re excellent because they will say to you, having done it many times, is they will say to you, the bank’s going to need this, that, and the other. You’ve got a few months, try and dig them out. Make sure you’ve got your pay slips, make sure you get your spending in order, make sure you do so. It’s a bit of forward planning before you before you perhaps show your bank account details or whatever, you know, curb the cost of coffee. Other coffee shops are available, all that stuff, you know. So curb your spending because you get ready. But people don’t do that for a house or a flat. They don’t, there’s nothing there. The agent would make say, you know, just keep it neat and tidy for the viewings, and that’s it. You know, that’s not that’s not downplaying the role of an estate agent. They’re very good at what they do when they are good. But I don’t think there’s any sort of checklist available out there that that gets people ready for the things they might encounter.

Speaker: 41:26
No, because it’s the good the problem is is because you want that before they’re getting in touch with you. Yeah. And so who’s the person that’s gonna give it to them?

Speaker 2: 41:37
Well, that’s right. Or often I found I find the circles a bit broken. So someone says, Don’t worry, I know everything you might want, but I’ve sent it to the solicitor. Right, but I’m not gonna get it. So you’ve then got to ask who the solicitor is of your client to then pass it back down to you because otherwise there’s a delay because the solicitor’s stored all this stuff. You do your report with the assumptions and the information you’ve got to hand. Six weeks later, the conveyancer will email you to say, Well, did you check the record for this, that, and the other? And I’ll say, If you all’ve got it, can I have a copy of it?

Speaker: 42:15
Yeah, because there’s no one in the it’s that whole, I guess it’s the whole buying and selling process, and the there’s so many different parties involved with their own, you know, their own clients, their own interests, their own, you know, standards, regulation, whatever, all in this, except except maybe for the estate agents. I don’t think there’s much regulation at that side of things at the moment. But who is it that’s gonna, in in any part of that process before it gets to you, is gonna say, well, you might need a survey, or you might, sorry, have a survey, this is what you need to get ready. Is is kind of who would be that person to pass on that information. Because it needs to be a touch point, doesn’t it?

Speaker 2: 42:56
Yeah, but that’s that’s right. Sometimes it can be the conveyance, actually, you know. It comes down to anything, whether you’re in any industry, if you’re good at what you do and you’re experienced, or your firm is very organized, there may well be things that you put your client in the best position at the beginning, and you say, Well, look, here’s a few things that I reckon are going to be asked. So you better think about whether you’ve got that paperwork or do you need to order duplicate copies, that kind of thing. So often, you know, I will get referrals for work from conveyances who trust what I do, which is wonderful, and they will put the client in a decent position at the beginning. But but it doesn’t happen all the time, and it doesn’t happen consistently because you know it would interest all parties and square the circle if everyone was ready. You know, does the estate agent tell people certain things? Get things ready, present your property in a certain way. You know, get a survey done, don’t wait till the last minute, get it done early so you know if there’s any problem. And you can cut your abortive costs and move on to the next property. Yeah. But there isn’t a clear decision tree kind of thing. It’s just go with the flow, the system’s not great. Here are the usual touch points as you mentioned. And it’s kind of see how it goes.

Speaker: 44:21
Yeah. And I wish there was a which was a really like good solution to all of it.

unknown: 44:25
Yeah.

Speaker: 44:26
You know, the understanding, helping the education piece and things like that. I mean, the things that I’m I am working on with Surveyor K, but I think a lot of it also comes down to in my view, the individual surveyors and and how much they can impact on people’s experience and also understanding of surveys because it all gets passed through. People talk to each other.

Speaker 1: 44:52
Yeah.

Speaker: 44:53
You know, somebody, parents, they’ll they’ll have a survey doing and think he was brilliant. And they’ll they’ll mention it to the children and they’ll they’ll remember that. When I need to buy a house, I need to get a survey done. It’s like kind of that whole surveyors, I think, obviously, very, you know, of course, it’s an expertise technical and things, but I think there’s a lot to be said by it’s kind of a form of marketing by how you presenting yourself for the profession. And it’s the same with everything, all the touch points that people have with surveyors, whether it be your website, whether it be through state agent relationships, conveyances they’re talking about, surveyors. And I do think, you know, if I imagine if every every surveyor in the UK, like residential we’re talking about, did more to kind of explain the importance at some point, because I know a lot do, but I know a lot probably don’t. They’re just in and out, you know. And there’s no consistency of messaging.

Speaker 2: 45:53
No, no, that’s that’s that’s right. And I think again, it comes down to people that have and maybe been taught, well, don’t say very much, you know, because they’re not your client, you know, or uh particularly someone who’s doing a mortgage valuation, quite honestly, having been in that position, you haven’t even got time. You’ve got six properties to go to, some of which may include picking up and and and taking keys back to agencies. You haven’t got time, you haven’t got time to breathe. Got to in and out do these properties. Whereas if you’re there on the survey, you do have that, you’ve got the luxury of a bit more time, as long as you’re in the right firm who who gives you that time. But, you know, for example, we send out a questionnaire to the vendor via the agent, and we say things like, Well, have you done any works? Have you done any alterations? And if so, would you be so kind as to give us some of that paperwork so that we’ve got it and we don’t have to wait for it? But it’s showing people we’re organized. These are the kind of things that surveyors want to know about, and it gives people time to think, oh, okay, have I got a copy of that? No, I haven’t. Maybe I’ll get one. And we also explain how long we’re gonna turn up at the property for, how long we’re gonna be there for, you know, and it’s these kind of things we try to break those gaps in people’s knowledge who may have never done it before. So when we say we’re gonna be there for a few hours and people go, What? We’re explaining that we look at this, that, and the other.

Speaker: 47:21
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:22
Because if you don’t communicate, it doesn’t get out.

Speaker: 47:25
The message I’m always I had this notion, so my marketing brain’s gone off to something, is where you get all the valuers, every single value that goes to a property, they just leave people with a leaflet of valuation, it’s not a survey for every single just leave that there.

Speaker 1: 47:41
Yeah, it’s true, isn’t it?

Speaker: 47:43
Can you imagine if we all did it? Like the the message would get across eventually, but yeah, that’s right. How else? Or we just need it all or these cars, hashtag valuation or survey.

Speaker 2: 47:53
Yeah, yeah, exactly. We know you can get those t-shirts with the uh you can get this electronic thing, the message that goes across the t-shirt and it says, you know, valuation is not a survey sort of thing. Just really reinforce the message. But your yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker: 48:08
Big campaign, that’s what we need.

Speaker 2: 48:09
Yeah, it’s important. Put it on the buses going through central London, you know.

Speaker: 48:13
Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah, people might it might actually sink in then after about 10 years. Maybe. So we’re coming to to the to the end of our chat. Is there anything else before we wrap up today, Ed? Anything that you’d like to share? Anything at all?

Speaker 2: 48:32
Well, I just I just think we’ve got, you know, we’ve got a wonderful industry. We’ve got we’ve got you know, surveying valuers, particularly the residential sector. And obviously, there’s many, many other types of surveyors that I know that you’ve interviewed for the podcast, but you know, particularly from the residential side, which is my specialty, we’ve got a lot of people coming through, a lot of younger people coming through. It’s great to see the doors are open to more females, younger people, people from all different backgrounds. And I think we’ve got a wonderful industry, and what we have to do is we have to build on that, and we have to make sure that the people that are experienced are in a position that they’re able to talk to the new people coming in. And if we can really build a strong foundation of new standards, a really good way of working, then regardless of AI, regardless of technology technological changes, there will be an important role for surveying as a profession in the future. So it’s important that we do the job right and the technical skills but also the softer skills are passed down and taught, and then I think we’ll be in a good position as an industry.

Speaker: 49:52
Especially around uh the softer skills.

Speaker 2: 49:55
Yeah, because it’s it’s it’s hard to teach, but it can make an enormous difference for work, you know, new work, uh the way the profession is seen, because you could be the most technically gifted person. Uh you can tell what’s wrong with the roof, you can diagnose this, that the other. But if you don’t, if you’re not polite, if you’re standoffish, what’s that gonna do? You won’t get any offshoot work from that, and you certainly won’t do any favours for people thinking, oh well.

Speaker: 50:26
Even people, and there will be some that think, oh, I kind of would like to do this myself. Yeah. Yeah, because what if you that’s good? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:34
That’s great. You know, there that and the doors are open. There are more ways to become a surveyor these days than there were, particularly when I joined, and obviously people earlier than me. So there are wonderful opportunities, and there are so many different types of serve surveying out types of surveyors. Incredible. You know, you’ll find something that you like, you know. I fell into residential, but but I love it, you know, and there will be a type for everybody. So it’s a very diverse industry, it’s wonderful.

Speaker: 51:04
I think, I think, and that’s why I love it, because I think it is so diverse, as in, you know, the the things that you can do in surveying is just incredible, you know, going from a mineral surveyor, you know, there’s chartered mineral surveyors, for example, and then you have a marine surveyor I’ve recently had on the podcast. I can’t wait to get that episode out. Fascinating. The the similarities between buying and selling and valuing boats and property is almost identical. Exactly. Yeah, there’s going to be really interesting, I think residue surveyors will particularly like that that session. But it is, they’re so diverse, and it’s also like you say, you can come into another age. Like I know a lot come across from trades, and a lot also there’s but talking to someone recently around a lot of veterans as an option to retrain because they can get funding when they come out, and they can get funding to qualify, and they get that’s that funded for them. And a lot of veterans, it it’s a good fit to do certain types of surveying.

Speaker 2: 52:14
Yes, I can imagine.

Speaker: 52:15
With the discipline. But yeah, there’s all these different avenues. So it’s it’s you know, if you get surveyors that are training and they’re in their 50s, 60s, and I think that’s the thing. It’s not, I think of all of all the professions, you know, I think it’s one of it is probably the most diverse that I’m aware of, I think, compared to other areas that you can specialise in. You can do something to do with railways. Well, that’s wrong. It could just be railways, yeah, if you wanted, if you’ll have trains. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 52:41
You know, and and no two days are the same, you know. It’s fantastic. One minute you’re in a studio flat, next minute, you know, depending on various things, you could be looking at a Premier League football, footballer’s house. You know, it’s just the opportunities are endless.

Speaker: 52:57
Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:58
Yeah. They really are.

Speaker: 52:59
Yeah. They are incredible. Well, it’s been lovely talking to you, Ed. I will include in the in the show notes a link to your LinkedIn and also to Websters as well, Webster’s surveyors. But thank you. I’ve I’ve always enjoyed our conversations, Ed. I have really particularly enjoyed this one. Good. You always come up with these like this these stories and and and taking that perspective of the emotional side and the people side of surveying, which I it’s gonna be great to have this episode because more people need to hear it. That you are dealing with people, especially residential and people’s lives, you know, that you’re walking into the most private space ever.

Speaker 1: 53:44
Yeah.

Speaker: 53:44
And you have to think on your feet, be sharp, adapt, you know, dealing with difficult, awkward people are very emotional, or very, you know, it just can change, I imagine, just like literally, literally in seconds, this the environment could change. Yes. And you’ve got to deal with it really professionally. But thank you, Ed. I appreciate you coming on today.

Speaker 2: 54:04
No, so thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.

Speaker: 54:07
Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we’re doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveyors UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today’s episode are included in the show notes.