Peter Monk – what clients and surveyors get wrong about damp and the “blame culture.”

Speaker 1: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Hi everybody. Welcome to the surveying room. I’m your host, Nina Young, and today I’m joined by Peter Monk, an independent, damp, and timber surveyor based in the lovely Isle of Wight. So welcome, Peter. Hi Nina. Hi, Peter. I’ve been looking forward to having you on here today because from our initial discussions, I think there’s a lot that people will find of interest with your careers and what you get involved with. So I think I’d like to start today with just to get more of an understanding of your background, your career, and what’s led you to become an independent and Timothy Day.

Speaker: 01:14
Yeah, that’s um that’s a long and winding road, that one. Well, left school at 16 with a few O levels, reasonable amount. Well, I I jacked in A levels that I was doing because I just didn’t really know why I was doing them. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And um I knew I liked eating and I knew I was pretty good at making cakes, so I ended up being an apprentice baker, went through my Sithian guilds, started getting more and more ill, and found out that I was allergic to flour, which wasn’t really that helpful. Turns out I’m also celiac, which is not great. So that was a really bad choice, but I gained a lot of skills.

Speaker 1: 01:49
You wouldn’t you wouldn’t have known though at the time.

Speaker: 01:52
No, no. But funny how things happen. So you could think of it as a bad move, but there’s a connection with construction because what I did do with cake decorating and things like that, I gained a lot of very good hand-eye coordination, and I was able to use pallet knives and do detailed work on cakes and things like that, and that translated into my later career. Not that I had any idea I was gonna do that, you know, but it’s I’d always been fascinated with construction, but actually, electrician was the thing I wanted to do first, and then I found out I was colourblind, so I couldn’t do that.

Speaker 1: 02:28
So by me.

Speaker: 02:30
Yeah, exactly. So um I was a bit sort of lost, and then when I found out about this, it was just when this sort of recession was happening in uh late 80s, early 90s, and I couldn’t get any other work really, and so that was a bit tough, and so I ended up going back into to bakery and sort of trying to manage things with antihistamines and various things, and ended up eventually joining uh Sainsbury’s and told them everything about it in the interview, and they seemed fine. And when their head office actually reviewed the file six months later, they went, Really, we cannot have this guy working in a bakery. You know, you know, we can’t get rid of him because it wasn’t fair because they’d taken me on, I’d been completely open. And so I ended up retraining, and that led me to quite an early path in management that I didn’t expect to go into. Started off um sort of managing health and safety and doing food training, examining people, so I could still actually examine examine people for the basic food hygiene stiff. Oh, right. Not that I’ve used that in years, but that was kind of thing, and then I ended up moving up to regional office in Ichinos, but taking on the system support role where effectively it was some new ordering system and stock control analysis and going around a number of branches in the out uh in the southeast. So I used to do a lot of stuff on the on the road around there. Yeah. That was a very interesting time. But it wasn’t it was one of those careers I’d accidentally fallen into, and I kind of once I got myself I once I kind of made my money and I’d was set up with uh a decent place to live and all that sort of stuff, I kind of wanted to stretch my wings a bit. That sort of takes me up to nearly in construction. I did have um a brief time as a professional musician in that time with a record steel in a small record label and a small band, but that obviously didn’t work out, but it was good fun. And then um turned the century, ended up. I was in a band actually with somebody, and the bass player ran a company that was in what was the former version of the PCA, which is the BWPDA, and he suggested that actually I should go and try and be a surveyor and that I should start up a branch office. And I thought that sounds like a really good idea. So I started doing that, started doing the training, and I thought, this is ridiculous because how can I tell people what to do when I actually really don’t fully understand things? So I did the training and I just ended up working as a tradeie and um self-employed and really quite enjoyed the hands-on aspect. And this is what kind of trade was it? What it was dampened timber works.

Speaker 1: 05:12
I was thinking of plastering when you were talking about the cakes.

Speaker: 05:15
Yeah, well, exactly. That’s sort of that type of thing involved, you know. So there was a a degree of overlap with that, and then actually just through asking questions, why are you using this? What are you doing that for what’s the construction of this? I started getting really interested in lime and uh traditional construction and things like cob, because there’s a lot of that around the new forest where I was brought up. Just sort of started going around that kind of historical rabbit hole, really, rather than anything else. So I ended up being a contractor that was dealing with structural reinforcement, cob, lime, that kind of stuff, traditional repairs using the right materials and just starting to really get into the idea of building pathology because I was using the knowledge I’d got from my original training.

Speaker 1: 06:05
Okay, so it’s almost like the other way around. Because a lot of people go through the trades and then they’ll do qualifications like PCA.

Speaker: 06:12
Yeah. Whereas you’ve kind of did the time with the training and thought, yeah, I need to know all of it from the ground up.

Speaker 1: 06:19
And then it’s admirable, actually. I think I like that, but that’s admirable. I can’t even say the word admirable.

Speaker: 06:28
Because I thought there’s no way I can go around and even if I did qualify, so I didn’t do the qualifications, I just did the training, kept materials, used it as reference, and used that as a building block, and then started adding on other things to that.

Speaker 1: 06:42
And that was through the PCA, which is the property care.

Speaker: 06:46
But it was the BWPDA, which is the British Woodproof Center Deckriefing Association. So that was its former. It’s been going for like 95 years in one form or another, but the PCA is a the most recent incarnation of the name, effectively the same thing as I’ll probably get slaughtered for that, but it it could be viewed as being the BWPDA and then that’s hence the the 95 years behind that. So uh, but then I ended up actually doing the qualifications back in 2015 because I ended up having a spell in hospital and with sepsis, and I just kind of thought I need to stop the stress of being a contractor. Um I’ve had arthritis for years, and that was starting to slow me down. So I funny enough, when I decided to give up being self-employed, local PCA registered company, wanted a surveyor, wanted somebody with a heritage background, and I sort of basically said, Well, what about me over here? But I’ve done all the training, you’ve only got to put me through the exams, and I’ve got this sort of heritage aspect. So that was the kind of route into the the surveying part of it, and then carried on having all the interest with the with the heritage side of things as well. But due to COVID, unfortunately, the company, due to things that happened over that time, then folded in in 2022. So I just went out as an independent, and uh that’s when I started surveying my house limited, because I thought, well, that could grow into anything as a brand, and it was available on Company’s House and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 08:19
So survey my house, that’s a good one.

Speaker: 08:22
Well, that’s well, it’s very sort of does what it says on the tin, isn’t it?

Speaker 1: 08:26
Exactly that. I was just thinking the same thing. Does exactly what it says on the tin.

Speaker: 08:30
Yes. So yeah, one of my buddies just said, Well, that’s available on Company’s House, it’s available on YouTube, it’s available on here, all these domain names are available. Why don’t you just do that? And I thought, well, why why I can’t be bothered to argue with him? You know, I just did it. And I was really just going to focus on ventilation and condensation kind of related things initially, even though I could do the other stuff. But I’ve just sort of I’ve just let things sort of happen and grow as looking at opportunities and just seeing where things go. And I’ve ended up doing PU foam analysis for surveying there and looking at timber frame buildings and not sort of deeper analysis with regards to sort of gravimetric analysis and taking samples and destructive inspections and just really getting into the nitty-gritty of things and thoroughly enjoying it and just seeing where you’ve kind of built up over the years since you’re training.

Speaker 1: 09:27
Well, new qualifications as well, and the trade the trade experience, constantly building that’s those skills. Because a lot of people say every day’s a school day, you never stop learning as a surveyor.

Speaker: 09:37
Yeah, I really like learning, and I think I’ve probably got a bit of I think one of the things was that, and this is not any competition with my brother, but my older brother apparently, well, I was meant to be brighter than him, apparently, and he went on to Oxford and he got his degree. Does he doesn’t work in the trade where he uses it, he ended up living in a caravan for years and making his own charcoal and stuff and being living off grid? But he’s a really clever guy, and I kind of thought, I kind of thought maybe I’ve got something like that in me before I snuff it. And so I’ve kind of always been adding on to my education.

Speaker 1: 10:11
Yeah.

Speaker: 10:11
Because it’s kind of like I always felt I should have done something more, if you know what I mean. So I’m kind of doing it the long way around, but there you go.

Speaker 1: 10:19
So what your thoughts being um sort of generally the challenges or the issues that you see within damp and timber surveying as a as a career, as a profession compared to other other avenues. I’m interested in your thoughts, because I think we touched on this before when we had a conversation about that.

Speaker: 10:39
Although I think it’s probably a minority, it’s a very vocal minority that have a have a degree of snobbery about it, whereas actually, you know, the qualifications, they may only be a level three NVQ, but they’re quite focused. And I think if you really take them on board, there’s a great amount about building pathology in there. It’s it doesn’t provide you with a master’s degree, quite obviously, but there’s actually a lot of really good information in there. And if you do take it on board, you can get a very good understanding of what’s going on with houses. And I don’t think they should be sniffed at. And there’s a lot of there’s a lot of that that goes on quite visibly.

Speaker 1: 11:18
So it’s basically almost looked down upon.

Speaker: 11:20
In my perception, there’s yeah, there seems to be quite a bit of that. And and there’s good and bad people in the profession, I understand that. There’s good and bad in everything. And it kind of irritates me in a way. There’s a lot of people saying, Oh, look at this thing that’s been done. There’s been an injection damp you, of course, put in here. Look, what are who are these idiots? And it’s like, well, was it a PCA company that did it? All this stuff is readily available. If you walk into a builder’s merchant, somebody can just go in and damn proof anything they fancy at whatever level, even on a third third floor house, if they want to, they can drill and inject it. It doesn’t mean to say it’s a PCA member.

Speaker 1: 11:59
Right. And so what does being a PCA member mean? As in, is it like a uh you get the qualification? Do you have to then you put you part of a membership? I don’t I don’t know in detail much about how that works.

Speaker: 12:12
You get audited, you have to do CPD.

Speaker 1: 12:14
Uh no, you get audited, that’s interesting. Yeah, because I uh that doesn’t happen a lot for other professions, other professional bodies.

Speaker: 12:21
Yeah, literally I just submitted an audit form this morning.

Speaker 1: 12:25
Because I realized I hadn’t is that a mandatory thing then that you have to do every so often?

Speaker: 12:31
Yeah, yeah, it’s an annual thing.

Speaker 1: 12:33
Right, okay.

Speaker: 12:34
Well unless it’s by they’ve just introduced it for independence. So I don’t know whether it’s biannual or annual, but I mean it’s it’s uh it’s on a regular thing, so I should know that really.

Speaker 1: 12:43
No, no, it’s it’s just the fact that I think I think the fact that it’s actually a requirement in itself is is a really good thing. And I think it’s what we not necessarily bring too much of my own opinion into this, but what I what I see is that that’s lacking in some of the other other, you know, professional memberships is the actual mandatory. I think there are spot ones or if something’s flagged, someone could be audited, but not it’s not an annual requirement.

Speaker: 13:12
And I knew that there’s a new audit process that I haven’t actually seen myself. So I know that the old I was a very distant uh viewer of the old audit process because I was an employed surveyor within a company and the directors would see have a visit. I think it was annually, but I saw that somebody from the PCA come down from a head office regularly. So it must have been, I think, annually, to be honest, that they’d come around and I’d have a look through all the health and safety documents, have a look through surveys, the questionnaire directors, and they would be there for quite some considerable time and go through stuff, and then you’d get feedback, and there was always something to action, some improvement points and things. So that’s been going on for years, and now they’re bringing the independents like myself who are not contractors into that audit process quite rightly. So I think it’s the first year for that now.

Speaker 1: 14:01
Right. So I mean, my understanding is, and correct me if I’m wrong, is I do hear a lot of positive things about the training with the PCA, the depth of training, and I know lots of surveyors that have undertaken RICS, K, TIOB members, professional chart surveyors do undertake the PCA training. Because what it does, it’s it’s much more in depth than a lot of the other avenues to becoming qualified surveyor, because it goes really, it really deep dives. It deep dives into like damp and timber.

Speaker: 14:38
Yeah, you do. You got um regarding species, how to identify the attacking organisms, why you’ve got examples of the timbers that have been attacked by various different types of rot and and infestations of various types. You’ve also got things like understanding gravimetric testing, and so how you can create moisture profiles in walls and complete analysis of that. And so it’s not the sort of thing you can take everything out of in the classroom. There’s this kind of complete misconception by I won’t he who shall not be named, shall we say. We know. And that you can, and it’s even published in a particular book that I’ll also not mention, but this ridiculous myth that somebody can turn up, do a two-day course, and and just walk out with a certificate and go, hi, I’m a surveyor. I mean, anybody without any qualification whatsoever can turn up and say, I’m a surveyor, because it’s not there’s no restrictions on use of the name. So you cannot take that on in that time. I think that the ABB part of the MVQ level three, I’m just trying to walk the documentation for it, is that minimum 320 hours. So the the four-day surveyors course, of which you’re recommended to do the two days definition course before it, and of course, all the reading materials that you should do beforehand, that is a minimum 320 hours. So you’ve got to really kind of know about buildings to have any chance of passing it, which was the CSRT, but now the CSTDB. So you just can’t turn up and it’s ridiculous. You can’t just turn up and do a course and then wander back, do the exam, and hope to pass. It’s just not going to happen.

Speaker 1: 16:25
Yeah. I’ve heard it’s not particularly easy.

Speaker: 16:28
No. You know, it’s not that many people pass it.

Speaker 1: 16:32
I think sometimes, and and interesting to to know what you think, Peter, is around the whole perceptions because I think a lot of it can be fuelled through social media. And if you have, like with anything, some people shout the loudest, people can naturally believe that that’s truth. That’s very typical across anything with social media. And you know, obviously I do observe a lot of things across surveying and a lot of discussions that that go on. And I think one of the things, and I’ve consistently seen and be interested to know what you think is around where you have this kind of there is a blame, there is a finger pointing to either side. So you’ll have some particular, you’ll either have a chat survey saying, Oh, look at this DPC, this contract has been in, and it can be very negative, it can be anti-PCA, but we don’t even know if they’re a PCA member, for example. And then you’ve got the other side where I know that a lot of work for independent dance surveyors comes from referrals, or not referrals, comes through further investigation required through, say, your level two, your level three surveys. And I understand that because with regards to being a residential surveyor, for example, you only have so so much time and you’re doing the whole house. So you can’t do and through certain guidance, you don’t do full intrusive surveys as part of it.

Speaker: 17:56
You’ve picked up on such a good point. Now, here’s here’s the thing, I end up referring a lot of people to contractor surveyors quite often, and you might be thinking, well, Peter’s clearly lost his mind as independent. But often it’s like, well, what value is going to be added to going around pre-purchase when you can’t actually do a destructive investigation? If you haven’t got any more material to work with, you’re probably not going to be able to say anything much more uh conclusive. So what I tend to say to people is look, perfectly reasonable to get a contract around and they can give you a worst-case scenario and say, well, it might cost you X. And then the vendor has the option of saying, Well, okay, I’m now prepared to allow a destructive inspection because I can see that I might get some value and trying to prove that it might not be the worst case scenario. The purchaser has got um a worst-case scenario figure to use as a negotiation, and then they get some decent value about getting somebody like me in afterwards to say, okay, well, then you can give me permission for a really proper destructive investigation. You know what your worst case is. Let’s actually try and find out what’s happening. And then if it does need work, you’ve already made contacts with your PCA contractor and they can re-evaluate. So it might seem quite a complex process, but the whole purchasing process is well, it’s imperfect. It’s never going to be perfect, is it?

Speaker 1: 19:23
No, I don’t think it is, and I think there’s no need for the blame in a way. I think it’s also misunderstandings. And I don’t know if you agree with this, where a survey going in and doing a level two survey, it’s a very short amount of time to do the entire property and outside. And they don’t have the time, and it’s not in the remit or the scope to lift floorboards and investigate. I mean, there are obviously certain things you want to identify, but this then recommendations for further investigation in many cases is very valid because you’re you’re paying for one level two survey. So when I then hear of the other side where you’ll have independent damp survey surveyors going, well, I’ve had this further investigation. Why didn’t the surveyor who did the level two pick this up? And it’s like, well, actually, they’ve probably done a lot more. Yeah, and they’ve probably done a lot more investigation. So it’s almost like, yeah, but you’re getting that work because of the further investigation. I think there’s there’s definitely on both sides, we know there are as as you as we all know, there are there are better quality surveyors than others. We know that. And I think a lot of the damp contractors historically is because of the the the in history, the cowboy kind of your DPCs, and you see these photos of DPCs going up and round or frames and things like that. And yeah, so that doesn’t help either. So there’s all these different factors, but at the end of the day, it’s not I don’t think it helps the client.

Speaker: 20:57
No.

Speaker 1: 20:58
This kind of blame, this kind of no, it it doesn’t.

Speaker: 21:01
And I think really it’s trying to find good people on both sides, just sensible and talk. I mean, and and I do talk to some uh, you know, I’m very privileged that I could talk that I’ve been able to have good conversations, you know, one-on-one with some really and I won’t name the name them for to tar them with the brush of association with me, but really some really well-known big beasts who I see very little. In fact, I can’t think of a thing that I disagree with them really. Occasional tiny little but effectively, there’s not much difference that I can identify between PCA training and people on the conservation sighting. I mean, even when I’m taking damp and timbered technicians training at the PCA head office, we’re talking about lime mortar that should be used in the repairs on a lime-built building. This is not some kind of weird chemical company conspiracy theory like some people think it is. It’s just it’s just not the case. It’s just get the proper repairs done.

Speaker 1: 22:00
Historic uh thing. Yeah, it’s probably history.

Speaker: 22:03
There is something I thought of that’s another thing because you brought up a really great thread on that. That there’s a situation I encountered a couple of months ago. So there’s a local surveyor to me, he he’d obviously done all his CPD and done really well. And he put in his report saying, look, this should be investigated in line with JPS 2022. Tick, completely did the right things. He had a suspicion of what it was. I got permission to do the further investigation in line with JPS 2022, boroscope, floorboards up and things like that. And of course, what I couldn’t do was rule out that there was a damp proof course failure, even though I didn’t think there was, and I made that clear, until I could actually have permission to rip off skirting boards and I could do gravimetric testing, and it was a limited destructive inspection. So after trying to persuade the potential purchaser not to damp proof and to do the initial works, giving him a schedule, giving them kind of costs, having the initial RICS surveyor also recommending that, the purchaser wouldn’t have any of it and insisted a local damp proofing company that actually wasn’t even PCA registered, come round and dampproof everything and they weren’t going to buy it. And sometimes you get that the lenders are saying, Well, no, no, we’ve got to have this damp proofed and uh uh must have an insurance back guarantee, or we’re not gonna lend. And so people, even though they’ve been advised not to damp proof by the PCA, then get a choice of here’s my the building I want to buy, I don’t want to pull out of it, I’m gonna have to damp proof this because the mortgage company says so, and then they’ll instruct a PCA contractor to go around and say, I need a quote to damp proof this because my mortgage company are saying that it’s needed, and the surveyors have told them not to do it, but because they can’t guarantee the works that the mortgage company is not interested. So they you actually get these people coming around, and then of course somebody points their fingers and says, Oh, this PCA company done this, they should have never done that, and they’ve got no idea about the background that led up to that, and then the criticism is completely unfair.

Speaker 1: 24:15
Yeah, it’s based on lack of evidence, it’s just hearsay.

Speaker: 24:19
Yeah, it’s just like if you go to a house and go, Well, why did they do that? And the house is like 150 years old, my answer is well dig them up and ask them, they’re obviously dead, I don’t know. You know, just however you’re gonna be a fly on the wall of why that decision was taken.

Speaker 1: 24:36
I just when you said dig them up and they’re dead, I just thought, today’s Halloween, we are recording this.

Speaker: 24:45
That was completely past me by that. I just it’s just what I normally say to people because that normally raises their eyebrows a bit and thinking, well, of course you’re not gonna dig them up and ask them they’re dead. But it’s like, how are you going to work out why somebody did something on a building site 150 years ago? You don’t even know what pubs are open, what day of the week it was, who was working on there or when it you just don’t know. You could assume Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:08
Because when we discussed the podcast before, we’ve we’ve talked about certain things, and I think I was interested in you’d mentioned things around your passion for careers, so encouraging further people to be involved in this area. I’d be interested to hear a bit more about that.

Speaker: 25:28
Well, it’s something I am very passionate about, partly because of m me leaving school at 16 and going the route that I have. I think it’s amazing that you’ve got prior learning experience routes into RSA and RECS and so on and so forth. Any organization I missed out, I’m sorry, but just taking those two as an example. And there’s a lot of people I see on building sites that are really intelligent. Now, they might not be academic, but they’re ri they really know their stuff. And they would probably make really good surveyors. And so when I’m ever in a classroom where I’m teaching people for dampened timber technicians, I like to start off with saying, Do you realize there’s a direct path from you sitting in that seat in the classroom? And these people might not have been in a classroom for 10 or 20 years or more, and they might think be thinking, this is all my life is going to be. And there’s nothing wrong with being a dampened timber technician, but if they’re ambitious and they want to go further, they might not realize there’s all these doors there that they could open if somebody would just show them where they are and maybe just crack them open a bit for them. So I’ll say, look, there is a direct path. If you want to know, I’ll tell you what the path is. If it excites you, I’ll tell you what the path is. And even if there’s one or two that I inspire to do that, then what kind of pathways could you go down?

Speaker 1: 26:55
Any examples of that?

Speaker: 26:56
Damper timber technician, you you you get qualified as a damp protect timber technician. So it’s just a certificate, PC QT. But you do have course material to take home that you can refer to, you’ll get to know things better. And that would be a very good path to start you on doing the CSTDB, for example. So you could end up doing a surveyors training.

Speaker 1: 27:15
Maybe the What does that stand for, Peter? The CTS. Right. If I got up really certificate, I think I know. Is it certificate in timber?

Speaker: 27:24
Well, I didn’t get the CSTDB. Yeah, CSTDB. Let me just write down. I think it’s certified surveyor in timber and dampness in buildings.

Speaker 1: 27:31
Yeah, that sounds familiar.

Speaker: 27:33
Again, I might get crucified for that. I think on the government website it says chartered. It’s not, but it is a misprint on uh on that one. Interesting. But CSTDB, so it’s certified surveyor, I’m pretty sure.

Speaker 1: 27:46
In the show notes, what I’ll be doing is including links to things.

Speaker: 27:49
So I’ll include a link to the PCA if people want to learn more about it. So you’ve got the CSTDB. So yeah, you have to go and read, you have to know about buildings, you have to go and look at your course material, read, have recommended reading this. Don’t just look at it and go, oh, that looks interesting. Read the list, take it on board. There’s a lot of information, otherwise, you’re gonna be in that classroom and you’re gonna be trying to take on concepts because it’s really compressed training. This in for four days, that could easily be four weeks worth of training.

Speaker 1: 28:18
So it’s really intensive and full on it.

Speaker: 28:21
Really intense stuff. So it it should be refining what you already know. It shouldn’t be really telling you an awful lot. There should be a few points where you go, oh, that’s interesting, I found that out. But you should kind of know the what you’re talking about before you even go in there. So the recommended reading list, 100%. This is why this kind of oh, you can go in for a couple of days and it’s complete bunkum. I’m gonna be polite. You know what I wanted to say, probably we’ll stick with bunkum. And so then you can imagine going, you can go out and you can earn a living as a damper timber surveyor for a PCA company. So you’ve got no debts with a degree or anything like that. And you’ll actually know houses very well because you’ll have been working on site taking houses apart, you’ll be a better investigator because you already know how to take houses apart because you’ve been a tech. And so then if you decide to do your Sava or you want to go in on the AP.

Speaker 1: 29:18
So Sava, just for people listening, that’s the qualification that can lead to that’s residential surveying and valuation, and that leads to becoming ASOC RICs, is that correct?

Speaker: 29:29
Yeah. So they can do your um EAC level six diploma on that. So yeah, that that’s an affordable routine. I’m not saying it’s it’s giveaway cheap, it’s not, but it’s seems to be very good value. And you imagine people going through that actually know about buildings who’ve taken apart and seen all the the rough bits. Actually, that’s their foundation training for accessing Sava. So you could go from having virtually no qualifications whatsoever right the way through to accessing these organizations because you’re capable and intelligent. And maybe you need to brush up on your English or something like that. There’s so much to help that there’s very many people that have got an incredible, they’ve obviously got incredible intelligence, but it’s a case of applying it because they didn’t do the traditional academic route. There’s a guy I know, I won’t name him, but he is illiterate and he he cannot read or write, and his wife does everything. But he’s, I think, highly intelligent because I would go into a building. If I was trying to price up the work, I’d probably take a whole day, maybe more, to do it and say, Oh, well, that’s £52,000, £385 plus that. If I was doing a price for a contractor, he’d spend about 20 minutes and go and go between 45 and 55, mate, and then walk out. And he’s normally really, and you think the the intelligence it takes to be able to absorb information, but he can’t tell you how he does it or why he does it, he just knows, just understands it’s there are people with incredible intelligence like that, they’re just not academic, and it’s nothing.

Speaker 1: 31:16
You’re so spot on because of that. And one of the things that I’m seeing, and uh I’ve spoken to quite a lot, is is where, for example, apprenticeships are becoming more and more popular, and I think there’s a lot more work that needs to be done to help promote and encourage apprenticeships because quite rightly, for for various reasons, a lot of people aren’t suited to the traditional academia, the academic route. And historically, everyone, you are you are encouraged. I was encouraged to go to university, I went to university. Looking back, I probably wasn’t actually myself suited to that kind of way of learning. And and I think there needs to be more of this, and this is another good example of a route in to a profession. And there are lots of trades that they are coming to the stage of where they get into say maybe maybe the 30s, 40s, 50s, and some 60s, where the aches and pains of the physical work out on site, lots of reasons, and they want to do something else. And they do transition really well into this kind of role. I don’t know what you think about.

Speaker: 32:28
I’m 100%, yeah, 100%. That’s exactly it. It’s that but what they need is people being a bit gobby, really, and just saying, look, guys, do you know there’s a route here? Did you realise you can do that? And I didn’t realise there was a route until actually a structural engineer friend of mine, and she’s great. Uh, she’s an incredibly good engineer and and and the real deal. And um she said to me, Well, uh don’t you think you could get it? I said, Oh, I haven’t got a degree. And she’s like, Don’t need one. And she started me off on uh looking at assault ricks, and I’ve eventually decided to go through the MRPSA APEL route. But just the idea that that could be done was a complete light bulb moment. And how would I have ever known? RICS wouldn’t have come and tried to recruit me. Nobody was going to tell me that. It was just the fact I was friendly with a structural engineer that actually had a bit of a.

Speaker 1: 33:26
You stumbled across it because a lot of people don’t realise that I did the salva course and I stumbled across that. I considered being uh training to become a charter surveyor when at school, but sadly I met a charter surveyor and he actually put me off. He was about 900 years old, no offense. Sat in a very in a tweed in a tweed suit in a in a an estate at a massive desk, and I went to see him because I was interested. And it was just, yeah. So it didn’t happen. And then during COVID, I literally stumbled across the training course for Sava to be a registered, and I was like, yeah, I love buildings, yeah, I’ve got a background in auditing, report writing, risk management, all these things. It was like, this is a great fit. So, long story short, I did get so far through this course, which was brilliant, but then I’ve obviously veered off and done this, which which is something different to help lots of surveyors, but also to raise the awareness of this kind of thing where there is this opportunity is out there, and so many people I don’t think are aware of it. The opportunity to even late on in life to people say, Am I too old to do this? Someone that’s I’m absolutely not.

Speaker: 34:39
People should be shouting this and saying, Look, because we haven’t got enough surveyors. There’s a lot of surveyors that are really getting near to retirement, and I don’t think there’s enough young people coming in. And having younger people come in who’ve got their hands dirty, but also the older people that you’re talking about that can have some sort of perfectly reasonable career change the last 10 years of their life, let’s say. Well, working life, not their yeah, their life, but yeah, and who’s advertising this? And I’m just thinking this is this is a really real big hole in the system. Why I think so I I feel like a lone voice saying, Come on, guys, there’s a there’s a thing over here you need to be looking at, is there?

Speaker 1: 35:22
Yeah, I mean it’s an interesting one how you reach those people that are in, for example, in the trades, and they’re they’re sort of at that level where they they probably don’t want to be, they want to do something different. Because what I’ve observed is for people through things like the Sava course, hugely diverse background of people. So you you will have, for example, estate agents will are doing the Sava course, and then you have builders, you have electrical contract electricians, shall I say, so many different backgrounds, because it enables this qualification, enables that kind of thing. But also like the PCA training, if you’ve got a fundamental understanding of a building and how it works, how it’s put together, that is like to me, that’s like a huge, that’s such an amazing foundation like to evolve into property survey.

Speaker: 36:17
Yeah, and it’s just it is an under explored route massively. And I think that imagine there’s a trend towards people taking much more vocational things, I think that’s starting at the moment. And it actually mapping out that route for people and saying, hey, great, look do this stuff. This is this really great thing to do because you don’t have to be on the tools all the time, but being on the tools can earn you seriously good money because uh the they’re it’s it’s a valuable thing to do now, it is very valuable and honourable, and so it’s also you can look at it as a foundation to a further career when you get too achy, and um it just seems really good sense, and I don’t know why it’s not out there, it should be lit up in the lights.

Speaker 1: 37:10
Well, we’ll we’ll we’ll try and help with that with Survey UK, definitely, because it’s one of those areas where the the vocational, the apprenticeships, the non-academic routes is going to be a part of Survey UK where we can share those, because there’s gonna be a whole careers area that’s gonna be public-facing, and is sharing this kind of thing, so look, look at what’s out there, and and people can make their own decisions as to what route they want to do. But it is just awareness, it’s aware that these things actually do exist in the first place. And I think that’s we need that.

Speaker: 37:43
Yeah, as an advocate myself, as we talked about earlier, not in the recording, but uh I’m in the process of doing the PSA application through the APEL route, the pri learning experience, and I’m also going to be starting the Sava qualification. And I’m I’m 56, I was a bit of an old boy, but it’s it’s not too late. And I’m thinking, well, if I’m encouraging people to do this, and I kind of I’m doing I’m doing this kind of for fun as well, really, because I really find it interesting. But I’m thinking, one, I need to tread the path and go, there’s no point me saying, Do you realise this path is available if I’m not walking that path myself, I’d just be a total hypocrite. So I’m kind of going all in and going, well, look, if I can do it and I started off making cakes, then you can do it and try and be a bit of an example like that, and then I might have done something useful in my life. Who knows?

Speaker 1: 38:35
Oh, definitely. I think you’re a very, a very good strong advocate for that kind of thing. What I’ll also do is I’ll add in to the the show notes, PCA and Sava. Is there any other sort of areas of resource or that we could direct people to?

Speaker: 38:51
Well, I don’t know if you’ve heard of Graham Coleman, have you? Yes, yes, I have, but Graham Coleman anyway, he’s I think he was the first honorary member of the PCA. But Graham was 80 last week, bless him. And I have got the privilege of having conversations with Graham, he phones me up now and again, and really great having a chat with him. It’s just like, well, I’m gonna get a free CPD session, having a chat. But he has distributed to Russell as well and and other people some like his his timber book, which is identify identifying species. I’ve got some of that put up on the uh the Sava resource. So Ed King runs the uh Sava trainee group, you know, support group. So I’ve got it put up on there, but it’s copyrighted for Graham and he just wants it put out there, so it’s like he’s just giving it out free. So I can get that those bits that are Graham’s copyright that he wants out there that I have permission for stuck on the surveying uh room resources.

Speaker 1: 39:50
Yeah, absolutely. Surveys UK we can get that on there. The surveying room, just for everyone listening, is the the community part of Surveyors UK. But resources, we’re gonna have blogs and things like that, so articles, so that would be really helpful because we can include that within the residential and housing area so that it’s a really good resource. And also if if there’s a link to a site or anything like that, we could also link that out through the the podcast show notes as well.

Speaker: 40:17
But yeah, Graham’s got a YouTube channel, so it’s worth it’s really great videos. I just look up his YouTube channel and have a have a watch because um Okay.

Speaker 1: 40:26
Well I’ll I’ll I’ll also dig that out and we’ll get that added as well. Because I think you know it can be helpful when people hear things and they’re like, Oh, I want to learn something else. I want to learn more about that. They can they’ve got somewhere to go. Yeah, good views. Is there uh so uh so we’re coming sort of to the end of the conversation? I’ve ri I have really enjoyed this. Yeah, I I enjoyed our last our last conversation. Is there anything else you want to share with with anybon or anyone listening in?

Speaker: 40:51
I’ve got lumber little phrases. So the one we discussed was the truth lies somewhere in between, and you see all this conflict, you’re thinking like you’ve got to dig around a bit, and normally you can make sense of what’s being said by just just having a general rule of the truth being somewhere in between and just take everything with a bit of a pinch and stand back.

Speaker 1: 41:12
And um, yeah, that’s the truth lies somewhere in between. Yeah, I like that. It is, it’s very much looking at things, being sceptical, being questioning. Everyone has opinions, there’s there’s nothing wrong with any of that, but don’t take anything verbatim, I think it is sometimes the thing, and to to research, look into things yourself, and don’t assume that those that shout the loudest always know the most. You know, you really do have to keep an open mind.

Speaker: 41:42
Yeah, and go and talk to what I do like doing is talking to the I’ll underline this, reasonable people who have got radically different views and just chat because you’ll find that the reasonable people are not really interested in whether they’re right or wrong, they just don’t want to know what the truth is. And I love being wrong because it’s so much easier being wrong than right, isn’t it? Because you’ve only got to convince yourself to change, and that’s one person. If you’re trying to convince a whole group of belligerent people who believe they’re right to change their opinion, it’s just too much effort. So I’d much rather I like that. I like that, Peter. So much easier. It’s easier to be wrong than right, because you already have to be so just happy because you can just go, oh, I was wrong, I’ll just be right from now on. That’s okay. I’ve changed my mind. That’s great. I really like that.

Speaker 1: 42:29
I’m gonna have to quote that somewhere one day. I’ll probably use that myself because it’s so true.

Speaker: 42:33
If like if you’re only looking after the truth, well, why would you want to belligerently stay on the side that you were just because you used to be on that side? And then if somebody changes their opinion, why would you say, Oh, you used to believe this? It’s just like, well, you’ve convinced them, they changed their mind. They’re shut up. Yeah, it’s just like what’s the point?

Speaker 1: 42:52
That’s really good, and that’s a really good way to end, I think, today, because I think, yeah, there’s a lot of food for thought in what we’ve been talking about today, and I think as long as you know, getting your message across, I think about the opportunities that there are out there for people, uh, no matter what career stage you’re at or background, I think it’s an important point. But uh, but thank you, Peter.

Speaker: 43:13
It’s been great, it’s been really lovely to Yeah, you’ve you’ve always been good fun with chat, Alina. So thanks a lot.

Speaker 1: 43:18
Indeed. Well, thanks, Peter. Thanks.

Speaker: 43:20
Congratulations with what you’re doing. I really love it. It’s great for the UK.

Speaker 1: 43:24
That’s excellent. Thanks, Peter. Thank you.

Speaker: 43:27
See ya.

Speaker 1: 43:28
Bye. Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we’re doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the surveying room, the free and independent community from Surveyors UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. Links discussed in today’s episode are included in the show notes.