Navigating Rail Freight, Neurodiversity and the APC Journey with Chartered Surveyor Layla Davey

peaker 1: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Today I’m joined by Layla Davy, a chartered commercial surveyor at Network Rail. So Layla’s journey shines a light on the realities of navigating the APC with neurodiversity, working in rail freight, and the importance of loan working safety. Today’s conversation is an honest practical look at parts of surveying we don’t often hear about and one that really matters. So welcome Leila. How are you today?

Speaker: 00:60
Hi Nina, I’m good, thank you. How are you?

Speaker 1: 01:02
Yeah, I’m great, not too bad. And I’m really glad that we’ve uh had the opportunity to do this uh conversation because when we first had a chat and you talked about rail freight, I actually found that really interesting. I do like trains in railways. I don’t want to sound a bit sad, I’m not a train spotter, but I found it really interesting and I thought, and some of the things that we were talking about and we can talk about today, I thought a lot of people would want to hear about. So before we sort of go into some of those topics, can you tell me a little bit more about what it actually is that you do as a child commercial surveyor in Rail Freight?

Speaker: 01:36
Yeah, I um there’s obviously not a pathway for rail freight on its own. But generally speaking, it’s a lot like other sort of uh commercial like retail office surveying roles, but it’s obviously just specialised to the railway. So largely I deal with sort of open storage space and sidings, which is the the tracks that the freight trains will use to go in and out of the yards and load and unload their goods. So it’s more industrial based. There are sort of limitations to um sort of the experience that I get, but it’s one of those roles that I think once you’re in, you’re in. And because it it’s it’s enjoyable, you still deal with a lot of the landlord and tenant, lease compliance, strategic real estate management. There’s a sort of a level of property management involved as well. So it does tap into a lot of those areas of strength in commercial, but yeah, it it very specific. So that does limit you in some ways.

Speaker 1: 02:39
So it’s like a niche niche, isn’t it?

Speaker: 02:41
Yes.

Speaker 1: 02:42
Almost.

Speaker: 02:42
And I went in knowing that as well. All right.

Speaker 1: 02:46
What was it that that appealed to you? Was there anything in particular that appealed to you coming into that?

Speaker: 02:51
If I’m being honest, no, it was just time to take the next step in my career. Um, I was at local authority prior to that. So that there was sort of limitations in where I could go. And uh typically with local authorities, there was a restructure that was pending for quite some time. And um if I’m being very, very candid, I just got a bit bored of waiting um for that promotion that that wasn’t sort of going through at the speed that I I wanted, so there was a level of probably impatience there as well. But yeah, I so it was just time to take the next step, and I just started applying for different things really. I was on my apprenticeship route still for my building surveying degree, so that obviously factored into a bit some difficulties with applying for some roles because the companies needed to be able to take on apprentices and have the ability to support me through that. Um, so it’s a bit of a strange time to want to move as well. But really and truly, it was just the scouring the internet for different roles and different things that I thought I’d be able to do. And this position just happened to come up, and it was in London, which was quite daunting for me because I live in Essex in a in one of the seaside towns, not South End. So it was, yeah, it was quite difficult to grasp the fact that I, you know, applied for a job in London. Um, and it took a long while actually to get an interview. So I I wasn’t really even aware to the degree of like the real element that I’d be dealing with until I kind of got there on my first day and got immersed into the role. So it’s just something that’s and it seems to be the the motto of my career that’s just something that’s just happened and it’s been ended up being quite uh something I’m I’m quite passionate about.

Speaker 1: 04:43
Yeah, oh that’s that’s good to hear. Um, with regards to the role, do you do a lot of traveling?

Speaker: 04:50
Yes, yes, a lot, a lot of travelling. I cover a very large patch, just my myself and another colleague, my senior. So, yeah, between us we cover um what what’s known as through our roots. I won’t go into detail, but essentially it’s sort of um southeast London down to Dorset.

Speaker 1: 05:09
Oh well, that’s a big area. So, what what’s a typical day, or do you not have a typical day?

Speaker: 05:15
I wish I had a typical day. My typical day is often interrupted by side quests. So I’ll sit down and go, Oh, I’m gonna do this report today, and I’ll I’ll type a sentence and then my phone phone will ring and someone will say, Oh, we’re we’re looking at this piece of land for one of our projects, and it’s got one of your tenants on it. Do you think you could put us in contact? And then I call the tenant up and say, Oh, I’ve got this project, and this is what they’d like to do, and that just small tasks like that pop up, and you have to deal with them immediately because a lot of the projects and things are quite urgent, and they’ve either been let down with the space they were using, or something’s happened that means that they need to ask uh one of our tenants. So, yeah, that can happen, or you know, sometimes it will be, oh, this person’s using this bit of land, and should they be? And and then you have to look it up on the systems and check, and yeah, there’s a lot of interference from other tasks, but it’s all part of the job and it it keeps you on your toes.

Speaker 1: 06:15
What kind of things are you inspecting, for example, when you go out to a particular site?

Speaker: 06:20
So the biggest thing with any of our sites, whether they’re um tenanted or vacant, is uh safety security. Um, is is are all the gates locked? Is there any breaches in the fencing? Um, are there any immediate safety concerns regarding sort of like fly tipping or m materials that shouldn’t be by the railway? It’s very largely based on health and safety compliance and security of the site as a forefront, but obviously for tenanted sites, we’re also checking for uses, making sure it’s in line with the lease and general lease compliance as well. And in some cases, a lot of our tenants are very, very good tenants. So I hope they’re listening. Um but um yeah, they’re they are we you know they’re very they’re rail-oriented tenants, which means that they are very aware of the risks of the railway and health and safety, but ever so often it’s all can you reduce the the height of the aggregate um that you’re storing because it’s too high, or um, you know, can you move some of those tyres because they’re a fire risk? And very occasionally you still find some of the uh prohibited gases on site, so it’s just a case of this is what it says in the lease, you’re not allowed to have that there. Please can you remove it?

Speaker 1: 07:37
Ah, and I think uh you mentioned Japanese nutweed, just had to mention it.

Speaker: 07:41
Yeah, that’s one that we look out for regularly um on the railway. Uh any signs of it. We were, you know, we obviously report it immediately and start the process of of treatment. But I don’t I haven’t thankfully come across um Japanese knotweed, but colleagues of mine have. So I’ve yeah, that’s been successfully treated.

Speaker 1: 08:03
So um Yeah, I think it can be geographically concentrated Japanese knotweed. Some areas have it a lot more than others. I remember when uh years back when I was doing my own studies and uh I remember looking into like a heat map of of Japanese knotweed in the UK, and it’s quite interesting to see that some areas it’s really heavily concentrated.

Speaker: 08:21
Oh really? I’ve not seen that actually. That would be quite interesting to look at, especially if it’s on my patch of the railway. Yeah. I’ll definitely keep uh more of an eye out.

Speaker 1: 08:34
So I think we’d mentioned before my last conversation around loan working, and it was uh I think that would be something interesting because I think you talked about being on site quite a lot on your own, and so what are the safeguards and that you sort of have to undertake?

Speaker: 08:51
Yeah, we we do I do do a lot of loanworking, as does my my colleague, because of the the areas we sort of cover, it wouldn’t be sort of feasible for both of us to travel out to everything together. So typically where I might be meeting someone on site, I would tend to take, especially like a prospective tenant, um, I would take someone else with me anyway, just out of precaution. There’s someone new with you know we’re not familiar. But doing inspections typically I’ll meet tenants on site um or be going to tenanted sites, so I’ll be signing in and out. But we do have loan working on our uh a divide um an app on our phone. So um we can open that up and turn it on, which means that we’re obviously there’s a degree of monitoring happening. I’m not entirely sure how it works um because thankfully I’ve never had it triggered, but uh from from what I’ve I understand, um it could could not be correct, but it listens to triggers. So obviously wording that’s that could trigger off a concern, or if if you become non sort of non-responsive in in dialogue and things like that. So I think that triggers off a concern, which is then raised and escalated. But I do site check-ins as well with with my uh line manager and say I’m on site, I’m now doing this, and then I’ll message again and say leaving site. Um, and obviously while I’m driving, I can’t do anything, but then as soon as I arrive to my next location or back home, it’ll be I’ve you know I’m home safely.

Speaker 1: 10:24
Um yeah, it’s really good. It’s really good you’ve got the app and that that process. Yeah. I think I think a lot of other organizations would benefit from that, that kind of thing.

Speaker: 10:35
Yeah, I’m really surprised that uh like it’s still an area that is so underlooked would be the correct word, I think. I mean, we in the local authority um we had uh I can’t remember what they were called, it was like Skyguard or something, and and it was another loan working device, but I I never never used it or never had one because I didn’t do a lot of loan working. It was always teamed up taking out juniors um to go and do inspections and things. So um thankfully didn’t really experience the loan working part, but certainly, yeah, where I am now I know it’s something that says that if you can prevent it, you should, but ultimately there’s a there’s a feasibility of of things as well, like the financial costs of taking out two qualified surveyors to a an inspection on a vacant property. Obviously, safety measure-wise, I’d I’m probably overly cautious, but if I was to ever come across anything um that that was concerning, I would immediately retreat and make a phone call and call out um a security company to come and investigate on my behalf because that’s safer than going forth and you know, potentially there’s um squatting or anything in a property.

Speaker 1: 11:55
So it’s like being aware, isn’t it? The awareness of it. Yeah.

Speaker: 11:58
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s a health and safety issue as well, because some of our buildings do have asbestos. So if you’ve got squatters in there and they’ve decided to start kicking panels in and things like that, you know, if you I think the moment I would see anything that I’d consider as dangerous, I’d I’d, you know, retreat, make a phone call and get the next steps in place.

Speaker 1: 12:19
Yeah, I definitely think that kind of thing though, I think it’s a really positive thing that you’ve got to have that app because it isn’t. I agree, I think across so many types of surveying, there is so much loanworking. It just is a very common thing. And that you know, there has been things that have happened in the past, thankfully not very often. Um was it this Susie Lampler?

Speaker: 12:42
I think it’s Susie Lampler, yeah. There’s a Susie Lampler Trust for you know raising awareness of loan working because obviously for anyone that might not be aware, she was an a young estate agent who went out to go and meet a client and uh effectively didn’t return, and there was no mechanisms in place to protect her from anything.

Speaker 1: 13:04
Well, hopefully with things like this and moving forwards there’ll be more and more of these kind of devices and things, and and you’ve got you’ve got really clearly got really good procedures and processes where you are, which is really good to hear. What I’d like to explore now is around the APC. So tell me about your APC journey.

Speaker: 13:25
Well, where do you start? Probably one of the most daunting and gruelling experiences of of my life personally. Uh I’m not sure if you know everyone would agree, but I think general consensus is it’s certainly no easy feat. I mean, obviously, rightly so, you’re becoming a uh you know a chartered member of of the RRCS. So it’s not meant to be easy, but it certainly is very difficult. I’ve got two young children, so I actually did my degree on the apprenticeship route whilst working full-time with with two children. Um, I can’t can’t calculate the age they were when I started, but I think they were about six and four. Um, so very very young and demanding age, and sort of just starting school. And so that there was all of that to contend with on the on the degree pathway. And then there was the APC that that sort of came around during the degree itself, because you’re doing a two-year master’s, you have to start your recording almost immediately. Yes. If you plan to sit um at the end of your, you know, once you’ve graduated. I chose to defer because it was honestly just so overwhelming, like just almost relaxing because you get the degree, and then all of a sudden it like ramps back up again. You’ve got to get ready for your APC. And I just I just absolutely wasn’t. Um so I I didn’t submit, so it would have been I I graduated in 2023, so it would have been sitting around May 2024, uh, which means I needed to submit by January, and I graduated in the October, so it just wasn’t happening for me. Um, certainly not with changing roles as well. I I I’m one of those people that apparently doesn’t do things in halves.

Speaker 1: 15:22
So it’s all or nothing.

Speaker: 15:25
Yeah, very much all or nothing. I’m always looking for the next the next challenge as well, which is uh detriment to myself.

Speaker 1: 15:32
So yeah, but that’s clearly why you’ve achieved what you’ve achieved. I mean, to become chartered is not easy. It’s not and this is it’s not just you, so many people I speak to. It is really, really challenging. And um I think what I’d be interested to understand a bit more is that sort of around neurodiversity and the challenges that brings, and whether that’s through the process or you know the support needed. I’d be interested sort of your thoughts on that, because I think we touched on that last time.

Speaker: 16:00
Yeah, so I’m dyslexic, diagnosed first when I was at uni, actually, so kind of really quite a late diagnosis for that. And then I was also diagnosed as ASD, so autistic spectrum disorder, in 2020. So because that was picked up through a workplace assessment. Uh, since then, I definitely also think I’ve got ADHD traits as well, which isn’t uncommon in autistic people. There’s a term that’s um Aud, which is autistic and ADHD. It’s quite common, but um there’s I think there’s an overlap in a lot of the symptoms with autism and ADHD sometimes as well. So um, but yeah, I definitely someone else actually pointed it out to me recently when I was on a phone call. They’re like, um, are you ADHD? I was like, no, but I definitely think I’ve got traits that yeah, I can’t I’m inclined to agree with that. Um so we’re just we’re just adding at this point. But um the the the main thing is is is obviously anyone that suspects, I would certainly say pursue a diagnosis and not for the fact that you’re getting a label, but for the fact that it gives you the opportunity to get the relevant support, certainly in the work.

Speaker 1: 17:09
I’m gonna say, yeah, what are the benefits? Is get that support. And I would imagine a lot of it’s also understanding for yourself, like ah, that’s why I do what I do, or that’s why I may be different from others in that regard, you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker: 17:22
Yeah, I don’t I I do think it starts a journey of understanding yourself, although I I don’t necessarily think that everyone would need a diagnosis to sort of understand themselves, that you know, people who suspect normally start doing some reading and research and trying to understand. And self-diagnosis is just as recognised. Um, but I think the formal process, although again, it can be quite quite quite tedious, and I think there’s quite long waiting lists for a lot. I I got extremely fortunate with with my diagnosis process. So yeah, I I would definitely recommend it just for the for the fact that it does give you that opportunity to seek out the relevant support in the workplace.

Speaker 1: 18:04
What are the main things that prove challenging because of this for you and and in the role you do?

Speaker: 18:10
Everyone’s really different, obviously, with how it’s it’s neurodiversity, so it’s no one way it affects everyone, but definitely definitely common issues that I experience or or issues that I experience that appear to be common amongst other people who are diagnosed is sort of like processing. So when someone’s giving you information, you need extra time to actually realise what they’re they’re saying to you. And if you don’t necessarily grasp that initially, then that can then have a knock-on effect on any extra sort of steps that you might take to do the work that you might have been given or to carry out the instructions that you’ve been provided with. So certainly for me, like processing is definitely one of my one of my difficulties where I I do sometimes misunderstand information or don’t have enough time to consider it.

Speaker 1: 19:02
If you’re not given so if someone’s literally just going blah blah blah blah blah telling you all this information, you need a bit of time to like sort of digest that, process it, and then sort of remember it, and then you know what to do. So but there’s there’s like a delay, is that and it’s at times clarify as well.

Speaker: 19:19
Like I don’t I don’t know. A good example that I think everyone experiences, uh no matter where they they sit in in life, is that sometimes someone might say something to you and you go, sorry, what did you say? But then it actually registers what they’ve said. Um, and then you go, and then you answer them and go, Well, have you heard me? Why did you ask me to repeat it? And you’re like, because I was still like you know, processing what you said. That’s exactly what it’s like on a daily basis, um, and probably at a more heightened level as well. So it’s almost like that ability to stop someone from talking and saying, just sorry, pause for a second there. Can I just clarify this, this, this, and this? Okay, let’s move on to the next bit. Um, so it’s just that ability to be able to stop and digest the information appropriately for you at your speed to then you know carry on reabsorbing and take notes and just mechanisms that people might have in place. I typically jot down keywords and phrases or do a little diagram of a flow chart of some sort that someone might be giving me a step-by-step on. So, yeah, it can obviously cause a lot of issues with sort of like from an IT perspective at work and from a software perspective at work, or you know, raising sort of uh purchase orders and invoicing and things like that. Because if it’s a process that’s that’s is quite detailed, then if I find it hard or I can’t process how to do it, I’ll just give up. And so then it takes even longer to get something done because you just keep putting it off because you think I just don’t understand it, so you just push it to one side. So that’s probably quite a more elaborated way of saying that there’s processing.

Speaker 1: 21:01
There’s um distractions, so noises in the office, or just generally if you’re trying to work at home or do things, ability to focus and stay focused, but if you’re easily distracted, then it’s gonna break your train of thought like a lot.

Speaker: 21:16
Yeah, and and different people thrive off of different environments. So for me, I like to be in a quiet, enclosed space so I could just get on with things in a focused manner. Um, I also prefer you know emails and Teams messages over phone calls and conversations. And and there’s a level of obviously flexibility that you have to provide because you do get people that come to your desk and say, Oh, can I just have a moment? And it’s it’s up to me then to say, Yes, do you know what? Can you just give me 10 minutes so I can just do what I’m doing and then I’ll and then we’ll find somewhere, or to say, Can you please put something in my diary? I’m really busy today, I’m afraid. Um, or you know, you’ll turn to you go, Oh, yeah, sure, no problem. Um, should we go somewhere quieter?

Speaker 1: 21:57
So it’s like the communication of it as well. Managing people’s expectations and and and letting them know, isn’t it? Rather than you just struggling and like getting overwhelmed with everything. It’s you know, like that letting people know, well, like can you just say that again or can we do this later on?

Speaker: 22:15
Give me ten minutes or or you know, can you just put some and and they’re all mechanisms that I’ve had to learn. That’s all around sort of the more assertiveness side of things rather than the passive, you know. Again, like I’m I’m very empathetic, so I very much think about how things will make other people feel based on how I would feel. So uh giving away chunks of myself as being a thing over the past few years, whilst learning these sort of assertive techniques where you can say, no, thank you, not today, and and not feel bad about it. Yeah, just taking everything that everyone’s given you and people pleasing is a massive one in order to not feel like you’re you know you’re you’re doing something you shouldn’t. So the developing techniques like that are all you know really good things that happen around workplace coaching, which comes from the process of um, you know, declaring to your workplace that you are neurodiverse and you do need support and having those assessments done. And we’re having workplace coaching that supports you with managing your workplace life. Um, so you you know, you have to go into the office, like you can’t not go in. I’d love to not have to go in. It’s the travel, it’s the the sensory overwhelm, getting home at the end of the day, and the children just want to be. I actually leave my house, it can vary, but um depending on where I’m going and what I’m doing, I can leave my house anytime from 5.30 in the morning to sort of 7.30, depending on where where I’m visiting and what I’m doing. Longer site visits take me up to four hours sometimes to get to. So um I’m on the train at 5.30 in the morning. Um, and so by the time it gets to the end of the day, I’m completely exhausted and I’m overwhelmed. Um, all the different things that I’ve had to do, which anyone neurotypical might just do on a daily basis without even thinking about it. Um, it’s you know, it’s that planning, organization if a train gets cancelled, if a train gets delayed, amended, whatever. You know, it’s it’s all those things that you have to factor in. And again, workplace coaching is something that helps you to cope with it’s not just coping with what’s happening, but it’s also coping with what you are allowed to do. Because I’m very much someone that needs to work within the lines, within the box. And um I need to know that there’s a process in place that if this happens, am I allowed to do this? Like, uh, do I have my own freedom to make that decision to do this, or do I need to consult with a line manager and let them know? So it’s it’s all those things that give you that ability to know what you can and can’t do. So yeah, like in the workplace, quiet spaces to work, head noise cancelling headphones. Um, some people opt in for loops, um, which are sort of just in-ear um headphones that I don’t know if they play music or not, but they just help to cancel out some of that sound that you get, the into sort of interference sounds. Yeah, and I think a lot of people use them for the train and things like that, but I tend to opt for over-ear because I I can’t, it’s the when you I can’t put things inside my ears. Um mainly because I’ve got tragus piercing, but just as well because it’s uncomfortable. I don’t I’m not a fan of it, so I’ve always opted for over-ear. Um, so it’s just lit little things like that, just even so they’re they’re they’re very slight.

Speaker 1: 25:33
It’s that support, and that yeah, and I think there’s what I’ve I’ve I’ve seen a lot of is where um and people have said to me is that within organizations, um, firms, etc., is you know, there’s talk about neurodiversity. There’s like a neurodiversity month or an ADHD month, and there’s something uh an article, but that’s all very well, but it needs to be ingrained into the actual day-to-day practical things. And you’ve already talked about quite a few of those, which is quite interesting to hear. I mean, interestingly, people listening consider something like that, like the quiet space, like the understanding, I think, and you having a place to talk to someone and not feeling strange.

Speaker: 26:15
Yeah, and also like the disclosure part is a is a uh I think universally a really daunting thing. And so it’s it’s having somebody that when you do disclose is not they don’t need to know everything about all different types of neurodiversity, but having the ability to say, okay, yeah, yeah, thank you so much for letting me know what can I do to help? But I think there’s still a bit of a stigma around it, and you still sort of do get the well, you don’t seem, you know.

Speaker 1: 26:49
Oh, those those kind of comments, yeah.

Speaker: 26:51
Oh, you don’t look ADHD, or you don’t exactly and it it can really take away from the validation of that moment where you’ve done something really big for yourself and and almost it’s it’s the start of self-advocacy, I think, the process of disclosing to your employer, because you almost have to to jump through loops to get reasonable adjustments and things in place.

Speaker 1: 27:14
How did that work with the APC? The because that must have been really, really difficult.

Speaker: 27:19
So thankfully, I’ve I’ve already had like workplace coaching and I’m due some top-ups actually. I’ve sort of got a number of mechanisms in place from a learning and academic side of things as well. So where I’ve sort of already got that, it was it was was fairly straightforward in terms of the disclosure and the request for reasonable adjustments, not necessarily with the writing of anything, but you do get a little bit of extra time. Sometimes they can extend your submission window to support with submitting, or although I don’t know if that was sort of a again, this is all on an individual basis, but I believe that I was entitled to a slight extension on the submission window to support with getting something in that’s obviously to a good standard um to be accepted. I was a little bit unique in my APC process because there were delays around sitting mine of personal reasons. So that that was quite a difficult process as well because it changes routine, it changes expectations, which are all things that I can struggle to manage sometimes. Largely the RSES were extremely supportive and helpful through the process, and there was there was sort of little that the the assessment team could do because it was sitting with another team. So that but they was extremely supportive and uh very helpful. And uh there were moments where I did kick off a little bit just because it’s unknown and the anxiety of waiting for dates and things, but they were yeah, that they were extremely helpful, and despite sort of some of my less professional moments, they really did did support me.

Speaker 1: 28:56
That’s good. That’s really good to hear. With regards to that, so to get that sort of extension of time and things like that, do they require from you that you’ve been formally diagnosed? Is that a requirement? Do you know?

Speaker: 29:09
I’m not entirely sure.

Speaker 1: 29:11
Okay.

Speaker: 29:11
As I say, I think self-diagnosis is extremely more recognised and um acknowledged and validated, but I do have a formal diagnosis, so it’s it’s uh a little harder for me to speak on that. But um, I did have to submit to there’s an email that you get to submit for adjustments. So you can find it very easily on the RSDS website. I I do think it’s something like along adjustments at rs.org.uk, so it’s very easy to navigate. Um, so you you just submit to them a request for reasonable adjustments. I documented my academic adjustments that I’d had made for sort of exams and assessments, which is um a certain percentage of extra time, leniency on sentence structure and pronunciation and words and grammar and stuff. Um, so that that all got put forward. And so the end result for me was that I got a little bit of extra time for my um actual interview. I did ask for sort of simplified questions, so not one question after another in one bracket. Actual, you know, one question, then the next, then the next. And then also I know that to a degree you have to know some of the acronyms like PI and stuff like that, but I did ask for sort of where where possible the ability of not using any acronyms or jargon to simplify that process to allow me the ability to answer questions for what they are rather than panic and think about what the acronym might be, um, which which would would send me on a on a tangent in my mind. So yeah, that was that was in place, and and obviously the extra time allowed for sort of some short rest breaks as well for a couple of minutes at a time. Um I did I didn’t use any of them because I think this is one of those things that once you’re in, you’ve you’ve just got to power through it.

Speaker 1: 31:05
I think it’s interesting that uh it and it’s good, but it w what this sounds like though is the the importance of the self-awareness, self-diagnosis and and and you know, potentially get it formally diagnosed depends on everyone’s individual sort of circumstance and situations. But and then sort of understanding that there is that support there before you embark on that APC journey and you know to talk with you know your your line managers or you know, make sure that to be able to sort of speak up about it in the first place because the more people know about it, then they’ll be able to provide the support.

Speaker: 31:43
Yeah, yeah. And and it’s also like this is why I say the the disclosure is the start of self-advocacy because there’s times where you’ve disclosed and your line manager won’t be aware because you’ve done it through the HR process. So that hasn’t been filtered to line managers, so it’s almost that process of redisclosing. And then you there’s also moments where so for me in my current role earlier in the year, like I’d obviously done my APC at that point around February, January, February time, and I just just had a whirlwind of a year. Like I think everything just caught up with me. Um, so it was like I’d I’d done the A, I’d done the degree, I’d done the APC, I’d done all these other personal milestones as well in my own life, um, as well as my career. And it’s almost like all of a sudden it just hit me all at once, and I was like, whoa, like I can’t even concentrate on what I’m doing. And so I had to have that sit down with with at this point, it was um the head of the department, the team that I work in. And I was like, I’m actually having a bit of a difficult time right now, and and actually saying, like, you know, these things are things I’ve done, but that but actually because of my neurodiversity, it’s impacting me a lot harder. Um, and and having to have those conversations because it’s not just all right, they’ve disclosed we’ve got some, we’ve got you know, mechanisms in place to help support them in the workplace or through their OPC or through their academia. It’s also then sometimes six months, 18 months down the line, going, actually, um I’m I’m having quite a hard time at the moment, I’m feeling very overwhelmed. You know, these are the things that I’ve been doing. And the fact that because of my neurodiversity, this is now impacting me that little bit more, or I’m having that that a little bit more difficulty with with these areas of work. Because I think people think that once it’s in place, it’s in place, and that’s it, you’re never going to experience any problems again.

Speaker 1: 33:45
Yeah, yes, it’s not it’s an ongoing, yeah, ongoing thing. It’s not it doesn’t just stop.

Speaker: 33:50
You know, someone, you know, a neurotypical person experiencing things of overwhelm and difficulty, yeah. And you know, they will need mechanisms put in place to help support them in the workplace, but it may be that my triggers or my threshold for overwhelm is less than than that of someone who’s neurotypical, and my experience of burnout is faster than that of someone who’s neurotypical. So, yeah, but bur burnout’s a big, I think, quite a big hot topic at the moment for people with um neurodiversity because it’s it’s probably what I was experiencing earlier in the year, to be honest. And that’s when you know the occupational assessments start, the workplace assessments restart, and it re- it you know, it re-triggers all of those mechanisms of support and assessments, and and it isn’t a one-size-fits-all that two years ago the same assessment applies to to now.

Speaker 1: 34:44
What I will say, Leila, I said I I think you know, from what you’ve told me, I think you’ve done amazingly well. Literally, despite all those challenges, to do your APC with two young children, I think has to be applauded because that is not easy. When you look back now, how do you feel? You must feel proud of what you’ve what you’ve achieved.

Speaker: 35:07
Yeah, I I do. Um one of those people, and I did a LinkedIn post on it recently, actually, that struggles to stop and appreciate the the moment. I’m always looking for the next challenge. You want something else, yeah. Okay. Yeah, like uh I’m not where I want to be by any means. Um I’m closer than I was two, four years ago, but I I by by no means I’m I’m not at the top of where I where I aim to reach to. And so it’s almost like I’m like, even after the after the APC, I was like, right, what courses can I do now? I’ve just just got off of looking at like an LLM Um mediation and arbitration degree uh or masters with the University of Law. Um and and having conversations around the possibility of doing something along that or around that. But I I don’t know, I just maybe I just don’t know when to stop and and sit down and say at first, do you love to learn? I do. It’s it’s tough, um, especially doing like masters and degrees and stuff. But I I do, I’m a bit of a bit of a academic addict. I do like to learn. Um, but I I do I I’ve come to the conclusion that I think I probably need to learn more about you know what I do commercially and developing those skills. Um I I would still like to do.

Speaker 1: 36:30
What do you what do you enjoy? What do you enjoy about what you do? What would you say appeals being a surveyor?

Speaker: 36:36
I mean Do you know what? I think it’s a career that suits my personality type. We’re all a bit quirky, we’re all a bit hit and miss. Some days we like to be by ourselves and some days we might want to socialise a bit. But as I say, like I think the motto for my career is that it just happened, but my first role in the like the property sector happened just off the back of doing a psychology degree. So I was like, I want to be a psychologist, and I had wanted to do that for a long time. Um, so I eventually did go down the route of doing that degree. But what’s interesting is that it was sort of like I’d had both my children, I had my second child during my second year of my degree, and it got to the end of the degree, and I was like, is it really going to take me another four years to become like a qualified psychologist in a certain field? And and it was like, I need to look for a job. And my husband was at home with the children whilst I did my degree because that was full-time on campus. So we we, you know, it was really hard for him to find something that worked around me. And he said, you know what, just go and get your degree. I’ve got mine, you go and get yours, and we’ll make everything work. So um, yeah, that that was that was a long, long process. And at the end of it, we both went, right, we need to look for a job. And we both just just sort of started looking. And it just so happened that I got an interview with local authority as an assets assistant, and it was like, Oh, you know, would you be willing to undertake a qualification? I’m like, is that a trick question? Obviously, I would be. But they obviously didn’t know me at that time because after they employed me, I was like, So when am I gonna start this qualification? I hadn’t even finished my undergraduate degree yet. Um, and I was like, when am I gonna start the next one? Um, but yeah, so that’s obviously how it came around that I did the building surveyor masters. Um, but I just always enjoyed, I think I’m a process person, I’m I like to decipher problems and puzzles.

Speaker 1: 38:36
And in Do you like the technical?

Speaker: 38:39
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 38:40
Yeah, I think that goes hand in hand. Yeah, it’s definitely like sort of looking through something and I have a lot supposed that say they’re geeky, like they’re obsessed about one particular thing, a type of cement, or you know, it could be you know, that that kind of thing.

Speaker: 38:56
That’s me with leases. I’m obsessed about leases, like I’ve and I’ve had been really privileged to have access to like very, very old historic leases, like working for the local authority, like the physical copies are literally like you open it up and dust drops out. Like it’s it’s like you have to blow it to read it. It’s honestly that’s where I think the love of it comes from, and like when you’re doing your degree in in surveying and you’re talking about properties and things, the first thing anyone says is read the lease. And anyone talks to me now, I’m that person that says read the lease, um, because that’s going to give you all of the information you need to know about what’s going on. So, yeah, come coming across like problems as well around like um what what to what to do in certain situations without obviously going into to detail that could affect GDPR. But yeah, like what to do in certain situations, like you’ve got a tenant that’s occupying a property that they shouldn’t be, and how on earth do you get them out and what do you do, and or how do you regularise it? And so it’s all those like sort of problem solving things where you have to do a bit of research and find out what you’re you know, what you’re allowed or what you’re not allowed to do.

Speaker 1: 40:08
Problem solving, yeah, that’s very, very common.

Speaker: 40:11
Yeah, it’s it’s definitely an area I I think I’m certainly more I’d say leaning towards a specialty of um like lease compliance and landlord and tenant management.

Speaker 1: 40:23
Yeah, because you talked about that legal, like legal qualification as well. So it’s obviously something that appeals to you because they go hand in hand.

Speaker: 40:30
Yeah, I always wanted to be a solicitor growing up, um, but I just I think detours happen solicitor, a psychologist?

Speaker 1: 40:36
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: 40:38
But from a really young age, I was like, I I want to be in law, like I just I know I want to do something to do with law. So this is kind of like the next best thing because I I said it yesterday actually to uh my old law lecturer, like it’s teetering on the edge of giving legal advice, but not actually, you know, being a solicitor. So you you have that law that’s written in the lease, the the clauses, the compliance and everything. And when someone comes to me and says, Oh, are they responsible for this? Do they have to do this, or are they doing who maintains what? It’s a it’s a it’s an immediate puzzle to unpack, especially on the railway, because you’ve got a lot of our leases which have like excluded equipment which is retained by the the railway itself and and um and maintained by them as well. And then you’ve got the area that they lease, and then this random building that’s like a a shunter’s hut that’s on their land, and we’re responsible.

Speaker 1: 41:33
What’s a shunter? Uh you knew I was going to ask that, didn’t you?

Speaker: 41:38
Uh honestly, I know that they’re obviously a very important part of the railway. Um in railways, a shunter is either a small, powerful locomotive used for moving and assembling trains in a yard, and or a person who performs the related tasks of coupling and uncoupling wagons.

Speaker 1: 41:57
Right. Well, thank you for that. You now have an actual definition. I mean, we’ve covered quite a lot today. So we’ve we’ve covered sort of the challenges around neurodiversity and the support that you can get and the importance of uh self-advocacy, I think, and and and how you’ve had to go through the challenging process for anyone is the APC. It is extremely difficult. And how you’re still looking for other things to do despite working very hard and having very long days. And uh also, you know, the the Susie Lampler Trust, I think that’s an important one on the app about loan working. I think it’s uh something that I think a lot of companies should look into using. I think it’s great that you have that at Network Rail. I think that’s really good. And I’ve really enjoyed learning about freight as well, you know, and a bit about the railways, because you know, I am a bit of a geek when it comes to that. But um thank you very much for your time today, Layla. Is there anything else you want to add before we before we sign off?

Speaker: 43:02
To offer support, really, for anyone who might be uh going through a process of of potentially recognising that they’re neurodivass, I’m but my LinkedIn is probably going to be attached to this or can be. So, yeah, anyone that might want to discuss that processing confidence of just you know disclosing or going through the motions of getting support in the workplace, I’m more than happy for people to reach out to me. And I’m also uh I’ve just registered and done the training to be a RICS counsellor uh for people going through the APC. So specializing, I think, in uh I I’ll help anyone, but certainly anyone who’s got a family and is trying to go through the process or is neurodiverse and wants some support with that, I’m more than happy to to do so.

Speaker 1: 43:49
I don’t know how many how you fit it all in in a day. So next time I speak to you, you’ll probably have about 300 letters after your name for all these.

Speaker: 44:01
Oh honestly, that would be great. I collect I want to collect letters, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:07
But thank you, Leila. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today. And yeah, for everybody, what I’ll do is I’ll include your LinkedIn profile and any other bits of information, the Susie Lampler Trust, I’ll include that in the the show notes as well when we uh when we release this episode. But but thank you. Thank you for today.

Speaker: 44:23
Oh no, thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1: 44:25
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