Charlie Crocker on valuation, building a surveying firm, and the future of property valuation

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. Today’s guest, I’m pleased to welcome, is Charlie Crocker. Welcome, Charlie.
Hi Nina, thanks very much for having me on. It’s great.
Great to have you on here today. Charlie is a managing director of Terracotta Property and an RICS registered valuer and chartered surveyor. And I’m especially pleased that Charlie’s on here because Charlie is a valuer. And I don’t think from memory that we’ve had a valuer on the show yet. So actually, this is a this is a really good one as valuation is so critically important across the profession, as we always do. We’d love to hear a bit more about you, Charlie, your background, or anything that you’d like to share with us and what it is you do.
Yeah, sure. Thanks, uh Nina. Um so yeah, I’m um the founder and managing director of Terracross Property. We are a shorter surveillance. We’re broken down into two core teams. I still look after the valuation team, which is very core to what we do, and we’ll value all sorts of properties for suite, uh, office, industrial, commercial, um, generally, uh Resi, nature’s, all that sort of stuff. And then um we’ve got a building surveying team as well, and they do green purchase reports, uh, art and wall, the contract administration and project management, that that sort of stuff, the more nuts and bolts side of today.
Yeah.
So that’s how the firm’s uh broadly broken down. We’re seven years old. Uh actually, this uh that this weekend, I think it turns out.
Are you gonna celebrate? Do you celebrate?
We’re gonna definitely have a summer poly, I think, and excellent invite clients and stuff. So yeah, you should be able to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it’s yeah, we’ve been going from strength to strength. It’s been uh, you know, as growing businesses, it’s it’s never easy. It’s but it’s it’s been a uh quite an adventure. It’s been great, yeah.
One of the things I like to ask also is sort of how do you become a surveyor? Sort of was this very much a school thing, or is it like most where they fall into it later on?
Um, I think I knew I wanted to be in proxy. Um, I liked the built environment, I like how tactile it is, and you engage with spaces and how you interact with the urban environment. And so I did town planning at Newcastle Uni. And it was a fantastic degree, it was really interesting. I think it’s really interesting in theory, but when I started doing work experiences over the summer, I came to realise that actually town planning in practice. I think you either work for the local authority, which is where all the interesting sort of major planning initiatives take place in terms of how the urban spaces are built out. And uh, but actually the pace of local authority and submitting or processing planning applications didn’t really appeal to me. And in private practice, you’re sort of doing the same thing but for private clients. So I knew that I was in the right ballpark, but just not the right thing. So then a couple of people came to a surveyors careers fair and they’d started talking about surveying, and I thought, wow, this is quite interesting. So after my undergrad, I did a master’s in rip state and the sort of rix credited course, and then came down to London and had John JL on their graduate scheme. It was actually Kingsturge at the time, but then they sort of got acquired by JLL. So I was there for five years, and that’s where my journey as a surveyor really began. And you haven’t looked back ever since. I haven’t looked back, yeah. It was it was a great time actually, obviously, ebbs and flows in the market, but generally I learned of the team under Andrew Frogstellend that is Andrew Frogst and learned a huge amount from him and the other people in that team. So that’s where I started specializing in valuation work, and I found it. I found it really interesting that numbers and and vans really underpin property, especially in the UK. So that’s how I got into the valuation side of things. Uh, I did do the graduate rotation. You did various bits of land on the tenant corporate real estate management, which I didn’t love, public sector consultancy, which was really interesting. And that was that’s a real mixed bag of stuff get involved with there. But yeah, wound up in the valuation team myself at home there. So that’s what is it?
What is it? I mean, that that’s actually a really helpful context, actually. What is it about valuation? Because it’s I always heard it’s not an art, it’s not it’s a it’s an art, not a science. And I think some people, knowing from trainee surveyors who are studying both areas, they they can struggle to grasp valuation. I think it’s one of those things you don’t get and then it you maybe it clicks. But what is your what is it about valuation as opposed to maybe the building surveying side that kind of appeals to you?
Yeah, I think the the numbers that really are dependent property are fascinating. And and when you get into commercial property, so that’s the side which I think is more complex. And we’ll come on to AI later, but the more complex valuations I think at the moment are slightly more shielded from AI because it I think also just just surveying in general. One of the things that draws me to spaying is you have to go to see a building, you have to see it, you have to really understand its context. Is there a railway behind it or an underground tube under it, or you know, is there under a flight path? And you don’t really know these things until you’ve seen it and the condition, the outlook, the South Face and Garden can have a real positive impact on the properties. It’s a great thing you can get away from your desk and really get to know the property. And then on the valuation side, I find the numbers really quite fascinating in terms of how uh how do you arrive at that value? And ultimately it’s the market which will dictate that. But then you look at commercial property and and you look at that more as a cash flow rather than what somebody might have just to pay for something because they want to be there, and the two are quite separate. But it’s certainly the commercial side of valuation, which is valuing a cash flow, which can be really interesting, but it it is quite complex until that clicks, it can be a bit of a hurdle to get over.
I think it is, yeah, it is because I I I did embark on uh uh training to be a residential surveyor and valuer, and I didn’t complete, I ended up doing the Surveyor SUK because it’s it’s just it was one of those moments I had, and I was like, which do I do? And that’s this is where I’ve ended up. But I yeah, so I I went through the whole process of learning about valuation. And it was interesting how others on the cohort that we’re with on the course really, really struggled. There were some that like liked it and got it straight away, and there were many that I don’t like this, I don’t want to do it. It is very, it’s very different, isn’t it? And how you work, I think.
Yeah, yeah, no, it it it does. I guess it does take a a certain type to to feel comfortable with it. Um but I mean ultimately our job is to justify how you can arrive at a a valuable property using comparable data and like for like, and then just make marginal tweaks to those inputs and those variables to to arrive at and it isn’t, as you said, it’s an opinion, it isn’t hard. I mean, there are certain things that are hard and fast, but it’s a judgment call on how much you might push out a yield or pull it in. I mean, with residential, you can walk into a property and it just has a good feel. You know, it’s just the bones of it, that the height of the ceilings, the windows, the light. That is slightly more. Yeah, that’s a fabulous property. You can see why somebody’s paying whatever they are for it. You know, that and that’s a great thing when when we see a property like that, you know.
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I’d like to understand a bit more about, you know, obviously you with trained up with JL, was that correct? Is that what you said? Yeah. And sort of how you you’ve then evolved into setting up your own firm and what that journey’s been like over the last few years.
Yeah. So I had a I had a really good run on JL and I really enjoyed it. What Ken JL? Some some folks maybe listening will remember the name King’s there’s KL. And after about five years, I was I was into my late 20s, I think. Brazil had the World Cup and the Olympics just about to start. And so I said to my then girlfriend, now wife, I’ve got a I’ve got a Brazilian passport, just by dint of having been born next uh to English parents. Right. So I said, let’s go, let’s go on a venture, let’s see, see what it’s like. So we moved out there with about five grand in savings, and um uh it was pretty tough. That first year was unbelievably difficult, but eventually we got up on our feet, and uh and that’s where I learned to move away from working for a sort of corporate firm and I guess hustled to start to learn to build a business. And the first venture I set up that was actually a floor plan company doing floor plans for estate agencies, which we had we had some good success. My wife, who’s uh creative, um, was doing all the floor plans you know online digitally, and I’ll go out and do a measure survey. We got real traction, but I learned a lot from that business because we priced ourselves too cheaply to get into the market and break into as a state agent. And so we were doing an awful lot of work. We needed the money, we needed to pull money out of the business, but and in the end it just we just couldn’t survive, you know, it wasn’t viable. So I then moved into brokering and essentially I became a bit of an estate agent for teams coming over for the finding sponsors and sports teams, accommodation. So my first major client was the New Zealand rowing team.
Oh really?
The uh near the length there for you know downtime, massages, reading, just before they went um road. And and that was a big site. And the commission was good on that, and that and then I was up on my own two feet, and so ended up um renting a lot of property for a lot of different sports teams, um, and then their families would need accommodation and that sort of stuff. So by the end of the five years that I spent in Brazil, it was it was fantastic.
So that’s such an interesting story. Brazilians and Olympics. I wasn’t expecting to be talking about that today. Yeah. I always live, I always live it on these podcast sessions where something just comes out of left field, and it’s just fascinating to hear because that must have been quite an experience.
It was a real experience. Brazil’s not an easy place to do business. Uh yeah, I I just I never really looked back from that moment because by the end, I I think I can call that a success. It took up to go out there, and it was it was tough. Yeah, by the end, it was uh it was great. We we wanted to start a family. I think we knew that we weren’t going to live out there forever. So um, yeah, after five years after the Olympics, uh, we moved back to London. And then I started consulting for other firms as a sort of hired gun as a as a valuation surveyor. And that was reasonably you know good. It was you’re you’re busy, but as a consultant, you’re only ever as um you’ve only got so many hours in a day, so you can only build so much money. I was doing this for other people, so I was getting approached quite a lot for people who needed surveys and so on, and and I realized that actually the model that I was providing your service for our firms, I could take on a consultant, a building survey, and and and and say, yes, actually, I can help you out with that. And I found a guy who was he was really good at building surveys, and he we developed the report which we we still provide today, which offers um uh a really high-level, good quality level three building survey, and we provide budget cost things, they’re itemized cost things, and and not everybody does that in the same way. We we start getting really good traction with those building surveys. And so that’s how Terracossa was born. So that was in April uh yeah, uh March 2019, I think.
Right. And what what do you find what what are kind of the biggest challenges with running a firm?
Well, um it’s hard work, I’m not gonna lie. It’s it’s really hard work, you’ve got to uh be determined, it takes a lot out of you. It’s a great thing, and it’s it’s it can be uh absolutely thrilling, especially when you win some business or you pitch something, or you get some great feedback from a client. Yeah, so uh it is hard work, and and funny enough, I’ve I’ve read books uh by other big business leaders and and people like Anya Heinmarch, Steve Jobs, Bob Iger, these these people, there’s a very common theme that they work incredibly hard, and you need that single-minded determination to succeed. So, in terms of the advice I give to people, uh, if they were to start a surveying practice, is there’s a common misconception that if you work for yourself, you can take holiday whenever you want, you can work the house you want.
Um That is not true.
It’s just not true. So you’ve got to be prepared for that. In terms of other other sort of lessons that I’ve learned along the ways, what I was telling you about the floor plan company at RIA, we priced ourselves too cheaply in order to get into the market. And I think when you provide good service and you you you know what you’re doing, there’s a real balance between being too cheap and trying to win that business, especially if you if you really need that work. It’s about holding your nerve and actually because there’s nothing worse than you you’ve woefully pitched for a big piece of work and you’re starting to feel resentful because it’s taking up all your time and yeah, you really need to move on. That sort of thing. So it’s finding that balance. You can be faster and cheaper than the major players, and that’s how you can gain traction, but also you’ve got to recognize the quantity of work, it takes time. And so fees is a big one.
Yes, I think that’s a really important point, actually, Charlie, because I think that’s something I’ve heard a lot is surveyors not recognising the value of what they do and thinking about pricing. I think pricing is one of the most challenging things for any business. It’s something I I always struggle with. It’s like, where do you where do you put yourself? Because psychology is if you are cheap, you are seen as cheap. And then people that actually puts people off. And so it can go against you by being cheap, but at the same time, you don’t want to price yourself out, but then you’ve got to convey value. So I think fees is that’s a really good point because I think that that’s a common problem across surveying, across the any profession. What do you price yourself at?
Yeah, exactly. And I think there can be a bit of a race to the bottom on fees. And we we we go up against building survey quotes on a on a flat or a house, and we can’t match it. And we we’ve become really good at just saying, listen, you know, we know what we can do. We can send you a sample of our report, you can get a feel for it, but you know, this is the minimum fee that we can deliver that for. And it does take time to have that confidence in order to do that.
And it’s saying no to things, isn’t it? Also, yeah. I I don’t you know, that journey that you go on when you set up your own business is that things come your way and it’s not always good.
Yeah, yeah.
I don’t know if you’ve experienced that, but it’s like saying no and staying focused on on the business and trying not to get distracted. And when you’ve talked about it being tough, I think it is. It is tough running your own business. I think one of the things I always say it’s resilience because you will have it’s like a roller coaster of emotions. I don’t know if you’ll you you’ll sort of agree with this, but you can have weeks and you’re on a high. You’re on an absolute high, and then the following week something happens and it’s just like you’re on a low, and it’s like, oh my goodness, what am I gonna do? So you have this like constant roller coaster of emotions to deal with all the time, and you’ve got to be so adaptable.
100%. And but also if you’ve got uh a team around you, you know, you can’t be that volatile with your emotions and you’ve got to be quite steady. And obviously, you know, you need you’re human and so on, but you know, I you can’t kick the door in and have an absolute rage uh in front of everyone, even though that’s something you might be feeling.
Yeah, that’s my what you might actually want to do.
But yeah, so you know, you’ve got to be mindful of those sorts of things. But at the same time, but you know, it’s also celebrate with small victories, you know, and and enjoy that and enjoy that with your team. And I think that that sort of side of emotions is quite a good share that. But yeah, it is an absolute rolling place, there’s no doubt about that.
It is, yeah, and you’re you you’re right, it is that you’ve got to hold your hold your nerve, hold your emotion when you’re then dealing with employees, clients, and everything. And you you’ve got to stay on that, that that public facing you know, view has to stay steady, despite what you’re doing. It’s like the old the the whole like the analogy of the like a duck in water and its legs are going like that underneath, and it’s like looks a swan, it looks really serene on top, you know. Everything, everything’s fine, everything’s like a swan, but it’s not. Yeah. But uh, yeah. What are your thoughts on um obviously? I I talk a lot about AI and I’m I’m curious to know. I like to know what uh surveyors are sort of doing in that space at the moment. Is it something that you’ve yeah you’ve looked at?
Yeah, it is definitely, and it’s actually how I came across in unit because of what the content you’re putting out in AI. And I found that really interesting, especially through LinkedIn. And it’s been part of the journey that we’re going on. So, how do we use AI? At the moment, it’s it’s really useful for scanning a document, a lease. So lease is crucial to the value of commercial property. So you want to have a look at the lease terms and the summary. So it can it can do a really lovely sharp summary in minutes. Certainly, when I was a grad, I was looking at Victorian leases, which were unpunctuated sentences that would go on for pages. You know, there’s absolutely nightmare to get to the bottom of the core terms. So a lot of that time saving. So that’s great. We use it for um local market commentary. Again, when you’re writing evaluation report, you’ve got to write on local market and the nuances, the demographic, and all the sort of stuff that goes into why that area is up and coming, or why it’s you know not doing so well, and all the why it’s been um selected for regeneration or whatever it may be. And so whereas before you would try in and pick up local bits and do a bit of internet research and and and look at industry publications, you can get a cricking local market commentary that just will sort of highlight various postcodes, areas, you know, what’s happening in the yields in that area or average house prices. And it can it’ll cycle the data so you can check it and you can run in things from uh MS and wherever it might be, or you know, according to levels, you know, prices are gonna, you know, that and that’s great. So you get very tight local market commentary, so that’s quite good. You it’s quite useful in you know, the building cells. Sometimes if you’re uh if you’re looking at a particular detail, you can look at line up a picture and get it to you know comment on that, or you know, how would you describe this architectural, you know, neural sort? So really useful little things like that. And and in terms of like critiquing defects. One of the things that I’ve been listening to some of your podcasts, um, and it seems you know, Richard Sexton made made this comment, and also um Olaidi about um proofreading your documents, and that’s certainly a direction of travel. We are just aware that we can’t load our onto a platform that and just send it out into the ether where there’s personal private information. So we haven’t started doing that, but I think that that’s probably more we’re gonna do where we we can adopt the right closed source and and that sort of AI. So I think there’s gonna be more of that kind of stuff, and we’re certainly looking at it, we’re looking at the RICS guidance on on how to sensibly and probably adopt AI without being reckless with people’s data and GDPR and all that kind of thing.
Yeah, I think I think it’s it’s great that you are using it and but you’re using it responsibly and you’re thinking about the data and and where that data gets uploaded. Because I think that’s where many, I think many people in surveyors get caught out when the likes of say one of the the large language models, which is ChatGPT, went went public to the world fully in November 22. Um, there was no manual with it. There was no like, it was just given this thing for free. And now we’ve got, I don’t know, it’s probably over a billion users now. And and I think so naturally people have just trusted it, you know. And I think that’s one of the risks that I see increasing, is that I do know of surveyors using the free tools, and I think they need to be really careful and using like an enterprise grade level for business is like the minimum. You’ve got to do that. And I know that’s something you’re exploring. And I think it’s really important because more and more I think there’s going to be a lot of expectations from clients, a lot of questions from clients. I think there’s a lot of disruption at the moment between shouting about you are an AI forward firm, as opposed to we don’t use AI at all. Both are being used as marketing, and it’s really interesting. Because that won’t work long term, because it’s almost like saying when the internet came out, which many did, we don’t use the internet. It’s but at the same time, do you want to slap it onto everything? A AI this, AI that. It’s like when we had low fat food, isn’t it? Low fat the it was just it the the current buzzword. But I think you’re using it and approaching it in a sensible way. And it is just trying it out. I mean, what’s been your experiences with it?
Kind of I think it’s a it’s all about marginal gains. And we as a business, we’re not reinventing the weird. We are a a child of today and for providing professional service. So we’re not a disruptor as such. How do we get those steer the march on people and get those gains? And so the example I gave them of a lease summary and just producing that in minutes, that’s that’s phenomenal, you know. And you know, that’s just Adobe offering that functionality or or comquility. So that’s not handing that data over. It’s so you know, what could have taken you quite a long time can you know you can whittle that down to minutes. So I think in terms of direction of travel, AI is certainly here as a tool to be utilized. And I think as we you rightly say it, it it’s about the responsibility and how to do that and making clients aware look, this is this is how we’re using it, and it’s in our terms of engagement or whatever. But I don’t see it having wholesale replacement of surveyors as such. I think you still need that oversight, and it should enable surveyors to to do more and to produce you know, better stuff, uh more efficient and high quality output. And so that I I I I sort of embrace it and I’d like to, I’m a novice and still love to see it as as something that I want to adopt and use in a way that is sensible.
Yeah, sensible, yeah, pragmatic. And it’s like not just throwing everything at it, but trying it bit by bit and seeing what fits. Because all firms are different as well, how they operate. And so some some solutions will not be. And I think it’s great that it has got immense time saving for for like the mundane things, the really mundane pieces of work, that it what it’s doing is it’s freeing up your time to do the things that you you are trained on as an expert to give professional opinion and judgment. And it that I think that’s it. That it’s not going to replace that. I don’t see that happening at all, really, anytime soon, because it can’t. It’s like the whole it doesn’t like you said about walking into a building, what it feels like, what you see, what you observe.
Yeah.
The AI won’t do that. No, it can’t.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, because it can only work off data that it’s got access to. And it’s like the whole when you buy your property and the next door property is I don’t know, it’s like a drug den or something, and it’s like really like the AI on paper wouldn’t know necessarily know that. So, how is it gonna interpret the building, the evaluation or anything? But you seeing it, you’re gonna go, whoops.
Yeah, exactly. Um, and that’s why I’d like to think that you know, as surveyors, there’ll still be a role for us. We can get out there and on the building. I mean, I guess one area of uh survey water weight of valuation models, you know, specifically in in my area, that I can see that you know, if a bank is lending, you know, 70, 80 percent loan to value, and then a C of Victorian mid-terrace three bedroom houses, and the AI model can pretty much get the accuracy of a value on that based on the on the data, you know, within say five percent. There’s enough fat in it for the lender, you know, it’s gotta lose 20 to 30 percent of value before their their stake is gonna be impacted. So you can see how they’re gonna be adopting these sorts of things. And and that’s also perhaps why we’ve started to well for or enjoy, but you know, gone after more complex evaluation work where there are multiple aspects to a building, you know, like a shop with three flats above, or you know, it’s it’s not as straightforward, it’s complex, it requires you know, various modelling uh to go into it. And you know, there’s probably it’s only a matter of time before the computing bell is such that AI can handle that kind of valuation as well. But for now, I can see the very vanilla mortgage valuation slipping away to AVMs and stuff like that.
There is definitely the shift, I’ve seen that a lot. You know, there’s a even a lot of surveyors that have that are in that space that are moving out, moving away from valuation anymore. Some firms don’t provide it anymore. I mean, that’s for a multitude of reasons, including professional indemnity insurance as well. But I think the AVMs have a place, don’t they? But you’re right, they can’t, the complex, it can’t cope with that yet. And it has to have the data somewhere to be able to do it. And and I think that’s one of the biggest challenges across some construction, even the legal prof profession. You know, there are many firms, for example, in legal that the leases, contracts, everything are still in filing cabinets. Yeah. They’re not on date, they’re not on anywhere. So all this let’s let’s use AI for the legal profession and blah, blah, blah. It’s like, well, you’ve got to upload all those leases onto the as data first. And that still exists. So it’s only as good as the data that it’s got access to as well, I think. One of the other areas I’d like to ask you about is around sort of recruitment, taking on graduates and hiring. What are your what is it you you’ve been involved with with that?
Yeah, it’s absolutely love the model. I think it’s fantastic. We have two rising stars currently at Terracost. And Olivia, my grand and evaluation team’s about to sit. It’s great to see that process. She’s a she’s very ready to qualify and to be through that over the last two years, and then Harrison and the building’s paying team. He’s he’s a little way off now. It’s it’s great to see it requires investment, but quite quickly you get that back, and it increases the surveyors’ output. But a significant percentage uh enables me to do more, same way AI can have a really good graduate. It’s fantastic. I’m a big believer in the model, and so yeah, we will always be champions. You know, we do the two-year structured APC approach to it, and uh we’ve successfully managed to get candidate through that in the past and uh and and continue to do so. So yeah, I I really like that. And then generally, I mean, hiring can be quite tricky, especially being a small firm and trying to punch above your weight and attract some you uh a lot a variety of recruiters and and headhunts. You know, they can sell some on the dream, but then they you often hear someone’s leaving a CBRE or someone like that, and then they see a small firm of seven people and think, oh gosh, this is quite a lead of faith. And I get that. There’s it’s far more exciting being down here and and looking up.
Yeah, I I agree actually. And I I do you find is it a case of graduates working in your firm will get involved in more things, whereas in say a big like a CBRE, they’re in one department and it’s kind of they’re exposed to that. Would that be fair?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, my um uh experience at JLL, I did four rotations across four different teams, and I was very much, you know, just caught caught um in those teams, and I got exposure those areas, and and that was that was really interesting. But take for example, you know, I’d I’d write a report saying what it’s just gone and in terms of engagement, yeah. These are the things that were just dealt with by who I’m not sure, they just happened. And certainly if you work for a firm at Terracossa, you have exposure right across the board. You’re you’re you are aware of the invoicing, who’s drafting that invoice, has it gone out? You know, in the terms of engagement, you’re drafting that, you’re going to all meetings, you’re pitching your work. And I’m a huge believer in empowering. And you will get thrown in at deep end, I think, when you’re working for a small firm. And and when you are good and trusted, you are given a huge amount of responsibility, which isn’t quite the same as that you might in a larger firm. But then you could argue that as the resources just to sort of throw money at CPD and get you through all the so I think it would be a very different experience. I think maybe you you could be suited to one way more than the other, but in terms of the wider skill set of learning to grow a business and be close to cash flows and forecast and what they you yeah, you’re gonna you’re gonna be it’s I think it it could be thrilling working first of all.
Oh, I yeah, I am biased towards the uh the SMEs, if I’m honest. Having background in corporates and SMEs in my early career, then I understand the differences between the two totally. And I think one of the things that gets mentioned a lot on the podcast is around the importance of those graduates that come in. Is one of the things that they tend not to be taught is around communication and how to deal with people, clients, difficult situations. What’s your experiences with that? And sort of do they get that exposure or how do you sort of do you see them come in a little bit green, they would say, with without with limited exposure?
Yeah, I mean, and and that you you learn quite quickly just in terms of composing a decent email to the client. And when you’re starting out, it might take you an awful long time to get that tone right and a short two-paragraph email architect, you know, sometimes you’re doing various draft. So I mean, uh with with my graduates, they they shadow me through all my meetings, through all my calls, they hear me on the phone first, you know, and and the same with the other surveyors. You I think uh I’d like to think that you know, quite quickly they they get up to speed. You will find that some some people have a natural affinity to feel more comfortable just talking and in and uh interacting with people, while others may be a bit more close. But once you know your stuff, uh it’s it’s great to see communicating, feeding.
It must be it must be quite rewarding, I would imagine.
Helping a graduate come along. Yeah, I mean I do think there’s a there is definitely an element of of giving back. And with a small business, it you you’re you’re working really closely together. I mean, you do develop like strong bonds with with your team. And and it is it is it is great to see when when somebody goes on to to do great things and um um you know you’re part of that process and in on their journey. Yeah, I think that’s definitely something that’s rewarding in that for sure.
Yeah, and I think that you you touched on a really important point there, which is around the strong bonds being a smaller team. I think in and I I have nothing against corporates whatsoever, but I think that’s that’s harder because you are in big departments. Yeah, and to get those small, but it doesn’t the interactions are different, the relationship’s different, you’re exposed to more people, whereas a smaller group, you do tend to develop those really strong relationships. And there’s the funners side of it as well. There’s I would imagine there’d be funny, funny, funny times, not just tough times, and and they’re experiencing it with you because they’re right there with you. So they they’re seeing the firm and how you run the firm, like you said. And I think that’s really powerful, I think, for someone relatively new into the profession.
Yeah, no, I think so. There there are there are those who will thrive in those corporate environments and and work their way up there as well. But you are certainly everyone in in a in a in one business, because you you know, right across the floor, you’re working from the building surveying team and and you know, on evaluation space, say a DFET or whatever, we can just go and have a chat with them. We know that they’re um and that’s great. And it’s not to say that you couldn’t do that in a large organization, but you just wouldn’t.
That sounds great. You it sounds like a great place to work, Charlie, from what you’ve told me. Have you got any vacancies? I’ll be down, I’ll be down there. I’m a bit far away from you. I’m up in the north in Yorkshire, so uh not just down the road, not uh not just down the road. Before we wrap up for today, is there anything else you’d like to share? Anything before we we wrap up? Obviously, I’ll I’ll include links to Terracotta property in the show notes if I want to want to learn more about you, uh, and links to your LinkedIn and the company on LinkedIn as well. But before we wrap up, is there anything else?
You know what? I uh one of the things I think is great about the surveying profession is the way that you can pick up the phone to another surveyor, not necessarily within your organization, but within another firm and the relationships you can build with ex-colleagues and and that over time and even go through the APC. We’re doing mocks at the moment, and I’m calling up people and just saying, Hey, listen, I need I need an hour of your time to do a mock. So I guess what I’m trying to say is, you know, if if anybody listening to this wants to have a chat about building a business or or whatever it may be, don’t be afraid.
That’s great. That’s great. There’s I think I think there are so many uh surveys, such as yourself, that are like that, that have that approach and attitude to collaborate and work together, yeah, share experiences and peer reviews. There’s there’s all sorts of things that go on. And it’s one of the things that I am uh facilitating with Surveyors UK, the things coming later this year, is the ability for firms to connect up easily, keep in touch, because some people don’t always know local surveyors, you know, and it’s how do you get to know them? I mean, some some don’t necessarily want to pick up a phone, but if there are other ways for people to get to know each other, I think it helps. But I think it’s great that you do that because it is that giving back. And it does sound like a bit of a cheesy line, you know, I want to give back, but it’s so true. There’s so many uh surveyors, especially also many that are probably nearing retirement, you know, that I I I would love to, and I’ve I’m sure I’ve said this before, download their brains because they have so much knowledge, don’t they? And you don’t want them to slip off into retirement. Whereas I think given the opportunity, they would give back whatever that might be. Um and I’d love to plug into that somehow, but I’m open to ideas of of how we could do that. But I think it’s uh I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, Chad.
Yeah, thanks so much.
The left field Brazil and the Olympics. That’s super. It’s like, I mean, it’s all good, but that was uh not something I was uh expecting. And I think you bringing to light, you know, what SMEs bring, the challenges of it is important. It isn’t all just rosy, but it is very rewarding, as what you’ve been alluding to, especially where you’re bringing new people in, you’re seeing you’re seeing graduates progress up in their careers, which should be a really great thing. And also the fact that you are using AI, you’re trying it out, you’re testing it in a responsible way, but you’re seeing the benefits of it and being, you know, pragmatic with it. I think that’s really important. And I just find it really interesting where you’ve got your firm has you’ve got the the valuation side and the building surveying side and the fact uh of how what a benefit that is, like to learn from each other. Like you say, you can ask about a defect, and that must really they must really feed into each other all the time.
All the time, yeah. No, it’s it’s really useful to have that. It’s great. Yeah, sure.
Yeah. But yeah, it’s uh it’s been a pleasure. And um, I’m I’m sure I’m sure we’ll keep in touch, Charlie. I’m sure, but thank you very much for coming on today. I really appreciate it.
No, thank you. It’s been great. And uh yeah, I look forward to seeing the stuff that you’re doing with the Squares Room and um LinkedIn. We’ll stay in touch.
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